ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:
The biggest movie of the summer is undoubtedly Christopher Nolan's "The Odyssey."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE ODYSSEY")
MATT DAMON: (As Odysseus) I remember a wife, a son - home.
SCHMITZ: Now, "The Odyssey" has garnered acclaim from both fans and critics and is on track to becoming one of the biggest box office hits of Nolan's career. His last film, the three-hour biopic "Oppenheimer," won seven Oscars, including best picture and best director.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "OPPENHEIMER")
CILLIAN MURPHY: (As J. Robert Oppenheimer) We're in a race against the Nazis, and I know what it means if the Nazis have a bomb.
SCHMITZ: I think we all know what that means. This has many of us asking just how good is Christopher Nolan? Does his name belong among the greatest film directors of all time? Well, I'm going to pose these questions to a Nolan fan, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers who produces our Cineplexity segment, and a not-so-great fan of Mr. Nolan, NPR science editor and correspondent Geoff Brumfiel. Hello to you both.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Rob.
GEOFF BRUMFIEL, BYLINE: Hi, Rob.
SCHMITZ: OK, I'm just going to get this out of the way. Is Christopher Nolan overrated? Is he underrated? Is he mid...
RIVERS: He's - I think he's...
SCHMITZ: ...As the kids say?
RIVERS: ...Right in the middle. Maybe not - I wouldn't say mid. I'd say properly rated. I mean, listen, I don't think even Nolan would say that he is above reproach. But I would say that he is the preeminent filmmaker of our - or this generation. He is the filmmaker who matters the most to the movies as an event, as a communal experience, as a popular art form to be debated and enjoyed. When the industry is facing such existential threats, Nolan is kind of the ambassador for the movie still mattering.
SCHMITZ: Marc Rivers coming hot out the gate. Geoff, I feel like you may have a different...
RIVERS: He's just sighing already. He's like...
BRUMFIEL: Thirty years from now, no one will care about Christopher Nolan.
RIVERS: (Sighing).
SCHMITZ: Wow.
BRUMFIEL: Not - he has no staying power.
RIVERS: All right, I'm about (ph)...
BRUMFIEL: He's of this moment.
RIVERS: HR, let's - HR (ph).
BRUMFIEL: He may be the best we can do...
RIVERS: (Laughter).
BRUMFIEL: ...Which is a sad commentary on the state of Hollywood - the best a male director can do right now. But nah, he's (ph)...
SCHMITZ: Geoff...
BRUMFIEL: ...No good.
SCHMITZ: I want you to back that opinion up with...
BRUMFIEL: Well, I can't. I can't back that up. I mean, let's (ph)...
RIVERS: He can't 'cause he's not correct.
SCHMITZ: Wow. This is already getting heated in here. So I'm just going to interrupt this with - I'd like to talk about his latest film, "The Odyssey." Where does this film rank in his sort of filmography for you, Marc?
RIVERS: "The Odyssey" is kind of in the middle tier of his films for me.
SCHMITZ: OK.
RIVERS: I think in these really puny times on screen, like, anything with this kind of spectacle kind of deserves to be seen. But I feel like what happens on a film this big is that the flaws of a filmmaker are rendered just as big. So, you know, people have talked about his problems writing female characters. I think sometimes he doesn't let his scenes, like, breathe. They can feel very crowded and rushed, like he's kind of smothering the scene with score, with the way that - the pace of the editing. He makes you feel the physical sensations of a scene, right? Like, you feel like you're on the ship with Odysseus as the storms are rocking his ship, right? You can - you feel like you're in the Trojan horse with his soldiers. Nolan's good at making you feel the physical sensations of a sequence, but he's not as good at making you feel the emotional stakes or emotional sensations of a scene.
SCHMITZ: I would agree with you on that, Marc. I - so I saw this film yesterday, and I honestly thought it was stunning. It was - I saw it in IMAX theater, and you felt what everyone on the - you know, on the screen was feeling. You know, the score was incredible. But again...
RIVERS: The score was scoring.
SCHMITZ: ...Much like many of Nolan's films, I feel like a lot of his films drown in their scores.
(SOUNDBITE OF LUDWIG GORANSSON'S "THE TRIAL OF THE BOW / VENGEANCE")
SCHMITZ: But I digress. Geoff, I want to go back to you here.
BRUMFIEL: (Laughter).
SCHMITZ: And I'm sure you're going to give us even more hate.
BRUMFIEL: I mean, OK, so I thought it was, like, the most typical of Nolan - all right? - and a real disservice to "The Odyssey." I mean, the Mediterranean, for those of us who have visited and for those of us who have sort of some, I would say, cultural ties to it, it's a lively place. It's a place full of emotion and color and beauty.
SCHMITZ: And cyclops.
BRUMFIEL: And cyclops, and "The Odyssey" was drab. I mean, it could have been like the Hebrides, you know, those islands on the northern edge of England. You know, it was drab and colorless. The sirens, the most alluring song that is supposed to exist on Earth, was rendered by Christopher Nolan as sad clarinets and Matt Damon screaming.
SCHMITZ: So, Geoff, I'm going to turn to you because you came out of the gates kind of raging against Christopher Nolan.
RIVERS: Like, ranting and raving (ph).
SCHMITZ: Is there a single Nolan film that you think is OK?
BRUMFIEL: Yeah, I mean, one of his first - his breakout movie, "Memento," which was about this guy who had, like, amnesia. He couldn't remember anything. And the whole movie was him trying to figure out what was going on.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MEMENTO")
GUY PEARCE: (As Leonard) It's my memory.
MARK BOONE JUNIOR: (As Burt) Amnesia.
PEARCE: (As Leonard) No, no, no, no. It's different from that. I have no short-term memory. I know who I am. I know all about myself. I just - since my injury, I can't make new memories. Everything fades.
BRUMFIEL: "Memento" was revolutionary in a lot of ways, right? I mean, it really introduced sort of this asynchronous storytelling, and it's a great movie. And you won't hear me...
SCHMITZ: So, Geoff...
BRUMFIEL: ...Argue about "Memento."
SCHMITZ: ...What does Nolan do in that film well, in your opinion?
BRUMFIEL: I think, for me, it was the first time seeing Nolan doing his tricks, but he has really basically been doing the same tricks ever since. So it gets a little tedious after a while. And I think the fact it was a mystery. You know, it was sort of - it unraveled and delivered on the promise of, like, you were going to learn what happened to this guy. And it was small, you know? It was...
RIVERS: It's very intimate.
BRUMFIEL: It was very intimate in a way that future Nolan movies have not been.
SCHMITZ: So, Marc, what are your top three Nolan films?
RIVERS: All right. So top three going backwards - 3, "Memento," 2, "The Dark Knight"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE DARK KNIGHT")
CHRISTIAN BALE: (As Bruce Wayne) And why do you want to kill me?
HEATH LEDGER: (As Joker, laughing) I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you?
RIVERS: ...And 1, "Oppenheimer."
SCHMITZ: "Oppenheimer" - you really like "Oppenheimer."
RIVERS: I think "Oppenheimer" has some of the issues that "The Odyssey" has, but it works more. I think - so this is a story about the so-called father of the atomic bomb, right?
SCHMITZ: Yeah (ph).
RIVERS: And I think there's a really kind of, like, intricate web of, like, consequence going on in this movie, the way power shifts. Like, in this film, power looks like the Trinity Test, but power also looks like the Army general deciding not to bomb Kyoto because he and his wife vacation there. I think "Oppenheimer" doesn't get enough credit for just how, like, intricate that movie is, and, like - and all the things that it's, like, juggling and exploring.
SCHMITZ: OK. So you're hitting on something that he does well. Anything else, for either of you, that you think that Nolan does well, that is sort of a hallmark thing that - which is why people enjoy his films?
BRUMFIEL: Go ahead, Marc.
RIVERS: I mean, I think this is a guy - I mean, so one of the critiques that we've - I think we've kind of mentioned is maybe he doesn't know how to write female characters well, which...
SCHMITZ: Right.
RIVERS: ...I think, in some cases, can be fair. I don't know if he knows how to write male characters that well.
SCHMITZ: Yeah.
RIVERS: I don't really go to Nolan for...
SCHMITZ: Maybe it's not about the characters.
RIVERS: ...Characters, you know?
SCHMITZ: Yeah.
RIVERS: I think Nolan has really cool movie ideas, not necessarily people ideas.
SCHMITZ: Right.
RIVERS: So, you know, in "Inception," the 2010 film...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "INCEPTION")
LEONARDO DICAPRIO: (As Cobb) I specialize in a very specific type of security - subconscious security.
MURPHY: (As Robert Fischer, Jr.) You're talking about dreams?
RIVERS: ...You know, he builds this rotating hallway during, like, one fight. That's pretty cool, you know? Or - you know, or the truck flip in "The Dark Knight," or, you know, what if, you know, in "Dunkirk," his film about the Dunkirk evacuation in World War II...
SCHMITZ: Right.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DUNKIRK")
KENNETH BRANAGH: (As Commander Bolton) You can practically see it from here.
JAMES D'ARCY: (As Col. Winnant) What?
BRANAGH: (As Commander Bolton) Home.
RIVERS: ...What if these different lines of action were happening on - in different timelines or different time frames? So I go for, like, what is he going to show me? I don't really go for, what is he going to reveal to me about the human experience?
BRUMFIEL: I agree. I think he does a good action sequence, a good sequence in general. Like, I...
RIVERS: Set pieces.
BRUMFIEL: Set pieces.
RIVERS: Yeah. And I'll also say I think he's really gotten at something about the way men, particularly white men, can kind of take what's going on in their head and, like, impose it upon the rest of the world without thinking about the consequences of this. That applies to "Batman," that applies to "Oppenheimer," that applies to "Insomnia," a very unappreciated film from 2002. You know, these men are saying, I'm going to live in my own reality or kind of create my own reality, take what facts that will work for me...
SCHMITZ: Right.
RIVERS: ...And forget the rest.
BRUMFIEL: That actually gets at the core of kind of what I find annoying about Christopher Nolan. I do think he is a man director for men. But I think he's got one sort of note, which is a note that really has resonated in this era, which is, like, men not understanding how they fit in the kind of post-, you know, feminist era. And so he has a lot - all his characters are the same character, the masculine violent man who doesn't know how to fit into the world. And I find it so boring.
SCHMITZ: So here's an idea. I mean, is there anything that either of you want to see from Nolan in his future work?
RIVERS: Geoff?
BRUMFIEL: Woman lead - let's just have him do a movie with all women.
RIVERS: Just to see if he can handle it (laughter)?
BRUMFIEL: Why not?
RIVERS: You know, I - kind of similar to that, I would love to see him work with a female screenwriter, or maybe just another screenwriter, and just - to see how that might rein him in or, like, temper his approach. I would like to - I would love to see that and also maybe half the budget of "The Odyssey," maybe even a third of the budget of "The Odyssey." Like, let's impose some financial constraints on him and see what he does with that.
SCHMITZ: That shouldn't be difficult. That was NPR's Marc Rivers and Geoff Brumfiel. Thanks to you both.
RIVERS: Thank you.
BRUMFIEL: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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