JOEL ROSE, HOST:
We have come now to Cineplexity, where talking about the movies invites us to talk about, well, everything else. Some of the most significant events in modern American history have been reflected or depicted in our movies. Think World War II and films like "The Best Years Of Our Lives"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES")
FREDRIC MARCH: (As Al Stephenson) The thing that scares me most is that everybody's going to try to rehabilitate me.
ROSE: ...The Watergate scandal in "All The President's Men"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN")
HAL HOLBROOK: (As Deep Throat) Just follow the money.
ROSE: ...Or the Vietnam War in films like "Platoon."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "PLATOON")
CHARLIE SHEEN: (As Chris) Looking back, we did not fight the enemy. We fought ourselves. And the enemy was in us.
ROSE: This week we will mark 25 years since the September 11 terrorist attacks. So for this week's Cineplexity, we wanted to talk about how that momentous event has or has not been handled in the movies. Joining us to discuss, we have Marc Rivers, who produces our Cineplexity segment, and culture reporter Andrew Limbong, who also hosts our Book of the Day podcast. Welcome to the studio, both of you.
ANDREW LIMBONG, BYLINE: Hey.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Good to be here.
ROSE: I can't think of that many movies that actually try to recreate the events of that day. How about you guys?
RIVERS: Yeah. I mean, they - Hollywood, by and large, avoided it. I mean, anything that one could associate with that day, Hollywood wanted to - they either postponed it or tried to wipe it from the moment.
LIMBONG: Until we got to the ones that, like, just dealt with it head-on, right?
ROSE: Yeah.
LIMBONG: I'm thinking, like, "United 93."
RIVERS: And this is five years later, so...
LIMBONG: Yeah, which is, like, a Paul Greengrass movie, right?
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "UNITED 93")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) We got another one.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) We got another hijacking?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) United 175 dropped its transponder off (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) We got a possible hijack, weapons.
LIMBONG: And then I rewatched "World Trade Center," the Oliver Stone movie.
RIVERS: Which came out the same year.
LIMBONG: Yeah, it came out the same year.
RIVERS: So we had these two - our two first big studio movies coming out the same year, dealing with the day.
ROSE: 2006, though, five years after (inaudible).
LIMBONG: Yeah, which is rough - I remember hating "World Trade Center." So 2006 was - I would have been 17 at this point. And I remember we were, like, just, like, in the muck of the war on terror. People - by that time, the sort of, like, hugging embrace of, like, New York being like, we can be better, we can be - the kumbaya moment...
RIVERS: Yeah.
LIMBONG: ...Kind of wore off, and it was all, like, very bleak. And then "World Trade Center" comes, and it is a very nice, honoring movie.
RIVERS: It's somber.
LIMBONG: Yeah. It's very polite.
RIVERS: It's like a cinematic memorial.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: So yeah, "World Trade Center" is based on the true story of two Port Authority police officers, here played by Nicholas Cage and Michael Pena, who get stuck under the rubble when the towers fall.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WORLD TRADE CENTER")
MICHAEL SHANNON: (As Dave Karnes) Hang on. Hang on, OK?
MICHAEL PENA: (As Will Jimeno) Don't leave us. We've been here a long time.
SHANNON: (As Dave Karnes) We're not leaving you, buddy. We're Marines. You are our mission.
RIVERS: Oliver Stone, who is known as this provocateur - right? - pushing buttons, he's on his very best behavior in this movie (ph).
ROSE: And a conspiracy theorist, too, right?
RIVERS: And a - yeah, with things like...
ROSE: In other contexts (ph).
RIVERS: ...JFK.
ROSE: Yeah.
RIVERS: Yeah, a conspiracy theorist - and here, he is very subdued. But I would say that's kind of what makes the movie fail in that it's frankly a little boring. And I think the movie reflects the kind of limits of fiction. You know, 'cause you know, 9/11, that in its own way felt like a disaster movie, you know? And how could a fictionalized representation of that day measure up against the reality of that day? "United 93" was about the only hijacked plane that did not reach its intended target because the passengers on board rebelled.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "UNITED 93")
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) We have to do something.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) We are alone up here. Nobody's going to help us.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) That guy goes first.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) We got to do it. OK?
RIVERS: I mean, watching it 20 years later from its release, it's interesting to watch because it kind of just comes off as just this is just a Paul Greengrass thriller.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: This could be a Bourne movie in ways, and you don't really get to know the passengers in the film. So while it is - it's harrowing, but it is very much of its moment when - this aspiration towards commemorating these people. But you don't really get any insight. There are no real insights to glean.
ROSE: This would be a short segment if we were only going to talk about films that are literally about the day.
RIVERS: Yeah, very short.
ROSE: But I think there are a lot of movies that about kind of the psychological impact of that day or sort of what it was like to live in its shadow. What are some that stand out for you guys?
LIMBONG: I'm thinking a lot about "Reign Over Me," which is...
ROSE: Ugh.
LIMBONG: All right, let's - I'll be right over here to defend it (ph). So this is a Adam...
RIVERS: Yeah, please defend this one (laughter).
LIMBONG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a - Don Cheadle stars in this movie where he's old college buddies with Adam Sandler, whose wife and kids were on one of the planes, right? And Don Cheadle runs into Adam Sandler after not seeing him for a minute, and Adam Sandler is obviously, like, in grief and in shock and doesn't want to talk to anybody and all that stuff. At its core, it's a buddy hangout movie. You just watch these guys sort of hang out, play video games. They go to, like, a Mel Brooks, you know, movie marathon. And it's a fun hang.
RIVERS: I think that's the problem, though.
LIMBONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: It's like the movie is having...
LIMBONG: It's the sum total (ph) - yeah (laughter).
RIVERS: ...So much to the fun hang. I feel like the movie almost is forgetting that, wait a minute, isn't this about trauma? Isn't this about grief? And I feel like the movie doesn't really know what tone it wants to actually hit.
LIMBONG: I think it tries to do that thing where, like, you get a couple guys in a room together, and you're making fun of various things about each other. And then you talk about, like, oh, so how was, like, when your mom died? You know, what you - it's, like, that, turn of, like, how to handle these emotions. And it accomplishes this thing about - it's been X amount of years since this happened, and nobody really wants to talk about it because nobody really wants to talk about grief because nobody really wants to be a downer. Nobody wants to think about it. But at a certain point, you kind of have to figure out what your life is like from here on out.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "REIGN OVER ME")
DON CHEADLE: (As Alan Johnson) I mean, you're single now. You can do whatever you...
ADAM SANDLER: (As Charlie Fineman) What?
CHEADLE: (As Alan Johnson) After what happened with your family and everything.
SANDLER: (As Charlie Fineman) Oh, whoa. Hey, I don't have a family, Johnson.
CHEADLE: (As Alan Johnson) No. No, I know. I was just trying to make small talk, but that was stupid.
RIVERS: I'm going to go in the opposite direction and say that a film like "Reign Over Me" and also "Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close," which is based on the 2005 book, came out in 2011, that was about this kid who loses his father in the attacks and has to kind of find a kind of meaning in all that's happened...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "EXTREMELY LOUD & INCREDIBLY CLOSE")
THOMAS HORN: (As Oskar Schell) What do you miss about him?
SANDRA BULLOCK: (As Linda Schell) I miss his voice. I miss his voice telling me he loves me.
HORN: (As Oskar Schell) Me too.
RIVERS: ...Those movies, to me, are kind of an example that even something as catastrophic and awful as 9/11 can kind of be made commercial or banal, you know? Like, it's almost like these films use 9/11 as an emotional cheat code...
LIMBONG: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...For us - for the movies to matter when the - I don't think the stories are doing the work.
LIMBONG: People talk about the Spike Lee movie "25th Hour"...
RIVERS: Ooh.
LIMBONG: ...As a movie that, like, says something about 9/11. Shoutout to Spike Lee - I remember watching it, like, recently - I didn't watch it when it came out. So I watched it recently with that in mind. And I was like, most of the 9/11 stuff is the side character just happens to live by the hole. And I'm like, what am I...
RIVERS: That's - I think that's like...
LIMBONG: ...Supposed taking away from this?
RIVERS: That's, like, literal. So this is the film about - Edward Norton plays this drug dealer who is hours away from...
LIMBONG: He's going to prison.
RIVERS: He's hours away from going to prison and serving this long prison sentence. And his two friends, played by Philip Seymour Hoffman and Barry Pepper, they have this conversation about how essentially, life as we've known it with our friend is basically over. And they're having this argument literally overlooking the ruins of the towers.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "25TH HOUR")
BARRY PEPPER: (As Francis Xavier Slaughtery) After tonight, it's bye-bye, Monty.
PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN: (As Jacob Elinsky) What does that mean?
RIVERS: So I think that movie is successful in kind of capturing just, like, the sense of mourning of that period and the sense of, like, we don't know what to do next, and we don't know what's going to happen next. But we do know that whatever happens next, it won't be the same as how it was before.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "25TH HOUR")
PEPPER: (As Francis Xavier Slaughtery) You're not going to see him
HOFFMAN: (As Jacob Elinsky) He won't like me?
PEPPER: (As Francis Xavier Slaughtery) Yes, exactly.
HOFFMAN: (As Jacob Elinsky) What's Monty (ph)...
PEPPER: (As Francis Xavier Slaughtery) You'll never see him again.
RIVERS: Even though Hollywood by and large has not depicted 9/11, 9/11 has still found its way into the movies, I feel. And I think those - and I think we can talk about films where that is more obvious. And those films are really interesting.
ROSE: Give us a few names.
LIMBONG: I'll jump in on one. There's...
RIVERS: Yeah.
LIMBONG: ..."Spider-Man," the first "Spider-Man" movie, directed by Sam Raimi.
RIVERS: Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SPIDER-MAN")
KIRSTEN DUNST: (As Mary Jane Watson) Who are you?
TOBEY MAGUIRE: (As Spider-Man/Peter Parker) You know who I am.
DUNST: (As Mary Jane Watson) I do?
MAGUIRE: (As Spider-Man/Peter Parker) Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.
LIMBONG: That movie means a lot to me. That movie came out, I believe, in '02.
RIVERS: Yep.
LIMBONG: And at the end of that movie, there's a scene where Green Goblin is about to, you know, attack Spider-Man. Spider-Man is, like...
RIVERS: Trying to save Mary Jane.
LIMBONG: ...Hanging from a bridge, trying to save Mary Jane, trying to save the - a bunch of kids (ph).
RIVERS: Trying to save the innocent folk, yeah.
LIMBONG: And then all of a sudden, when Green Goblin is about to fly in for, like, a killing attack...
RIVERS: The New Yorkers come through.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SPIDER-MAN")
MICHAEL EDWARD THOMAS: (As New Yorker on Bridge, yelling) You mess with Spidey; you mess with New York.
JOE VIRZI: (As New Yorker on Bridge, yelling) You mess with one of us; you mess with all of us.
LIMBONG: To this day, whenever we watch it, I cry a little bit. And, you know, it's like, I was so, like, touched that this was very specifically a New York moment and this idea that New York takes care of each other.
RIVERS: Yeah. Well, then if you go darker, Steven Spielberg's "War Of The Worlds" from 2005...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "WAR OF THE WORLDS")
TOM CRUISE: (As Ray) This thing, this machine, it crawled out of the ground, started torching everything. It's killing everybody.
JUSTIN CHATWIN: (As Robbie) What is it? Is it terrorists?
RIVERS: Spielberg was very open about saying that 9/11 informed his movie, and you can see it in the images where you have people running away covered in ash in the city or these scenes of fliers of missing people on walls and poles and things like that. And I think the kind of spooked unspoken undercurrent of "War Of The Worlds" - and this is kind of a Don DeLillo idea I'm ripping on here - is Spielberg's reckoning with the possibility or idea that the defining imagemakers of history may not be artists like himself but terrorists. I think you kind of - you get that sense of fear in this film, and it's genuinely disturbing. And I think it is Spielberg saying that escapism is not really possible in this moment.
LIMBONG: And for him to be saying that (inaudible), yeah.
RIVERS: Right. For, yeah, one of our great escapist filmmakers to be saying this, I think, is what makes it poignant.
ROSE: That was NPR's Marc Rivers and NPR's Andrew Limbong. Thank you both so much for joining me in this studio.
LIMBONG: Thank you.
RIVERS: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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