MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Let's take a closer look at the state of the United Nations with someone who knows the place from the inside. That's Mark Malloch-Brown. He served as deputy secretary-general of the U.N. in 2006, among several other positions there. He's also cohost of "The World's Toughest Job." That's a podcast series on the challenges facing the next secretary-general. He's on the line from South Africa. Good morning. Thank you for joining us.
MARK MALLOCH-BROWN: Good morning, Michel.
MARTIN: So as we heard, the U.N. is increasingly seen as ineffective. What do you think?
MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, look. The U.N. is, in many ways, a mirror held up to the state of the world. And therefore, when the world is divided and when you have an extraordinary level of conflicts - at the moment, there are 65 interstate conflicts, more than at any time since the end of the Second World War. When you have that kind of fragmented world, you know, the U.N. reflects it. And occasionally, under great leadership, it can get a step or two better than the state of the world it represents, but it is always tied to that. It's limited by the condition of the world more generally. Let me put it that way.
MARTIN: Are there any particular issues in which you think the U.N. has actually done something to ease the suffering caused by these many conflicts that perhaps we're not aware of?
MALLOCH-BROWN: It's gotten a pretty sorry record. I mean, I think many of us who are veterans of the organization, while we recognize the difficulty for the U.N. secretary-general and his team to make headway on the superpower conflicts - Iran and the Middle East or Ukraine - you know, we're frustrated that we're not seeing progress on what are, in some ways, second-tier conflicts, although, in some cases, even more deadly in terms of loss of life.
And notable on that list is Sudan, which, you know, has a lot of regional actors who are stoking that conflict. But it is one where the right kind of determined diplomacy that brings the players together, you know, could make a real difference. And we just don't see that happening. So, you know, I think everybody's looking to this General Assembly and the likely election of a new secretary-general as a pretty important watershed moment.
MARTIN: I think just speaking of this with people who are perhaps not aware, I mean, that crisis in Sudan is deemed to have caused perhaps the world's worst humanitarian crisis, with, you know, millions of people displaced both internally and externally, with really no sort of national actors committed to making any progress there that we are hearing.
So let's talk about the leadership at the U.N. Mr. Guterres' term is ending. Is it fair to say that the lack of progress over these many conflicts is in part due to failures of leadership on his end?
MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, partly, but it's also the gridlock in the Security Council. But I think what all of us who are concerned about this selection of the next secretary-general believe is that with a gridlocked Security Council and a General Assembly which is just too big to play any kind of real executive role - it has 193 member states - that that does create space for a creative secretary-general, a diplomatically creative one who can see where the overlaps are between the position of different countries and seize on them and drive some kind of diplomatic process forward and get mediations going.
And it's that lack of engagement and energy which has been frustrating. And I think, you know, if a new secretary-general can then put some early wins on the scoreboard, she or he will build a momentum and an authority which then allows them to tackle some of the bigger crises. And the first hundred days or so of a new secretary-general will be critical because it'll give a chance, where there's world attention on that individual and the U.N. more generally, to really turn the ship around and show that there is still energy in the old body yet.
MARTIN: As briefly as you can, are there leading candidates for the job? And do they, in your opinion, have the skill set that would be needed to try to get those early wins?
MALLOCH-BROWN: Well, at the moment, there are seven candidates. And there are two who are leading, Rebeca Grynspan of Costa Rica, a longtime U.N. official and veteran, and Carolyn Rodrigues-Birkett, a former foreign minister of Guyana who's a favorite with permanent representatives, of whom she's been one in New York. Both these two are viewed by U.N. insiders as very capable, decent individuals with a high level of integrity. But there is a suspicion that we probably haven't yet seen the likely winner in the race at the moment, that there are probably still more candidates to enter, because neither of these two or the other candidates have yet ignited enthusiasm.
MARTIN: All right. That is former U.N. Deputy Secretary-General Mark Malloch-Brown. Mr. Malloch-Brown, thank you so much.
MALLOCH-BROWN: Thank you, Michel. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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