SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
May 8, 2025 just after 6:00 p.m. in Vatican City. And the bells began to toll at St. Peter's Basilica. NPR's Scott Detrow was broadcasting live.
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SCOTT DETROW: I'm here in St. Peter's Square, where the white smoke is spilling out into the square, hovering over us. That means we have a new pope.
SIMON: And soon thereafter, Cardinal Dominique Mamberti stepped out onto the balcony.
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DOMINIQUE MAMBERTI: (Non-English language spoken.)
DETROW: We have a pope. Habemus Papam.
MAMBERTI: (Non-English language spoken.)
DETROW: Robert Francis.
MAMBERTI: (Non-English language spoken.)
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DETROW: Oh, my goodness. The pope is from Chicago.
SIMON: Indeed. The new pope was Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost, a member of the Augustinian Order, had been a missionary, then bishop in Peru and was an American, Chicago-born. Scott Detrow - co-host of NPRs All Things Considered - and NPR senior editor of religion and spirituality Daniel Burke, have a new book, "American Pope: Leo XIV's Road From The South Side Of Chicago To Vatican City." They both joined us in our studio. Gentlemen, thanks so much for being with us.
DANIEL BURKE, BYLINE: Great to be here.
DETROW: Thanks for having us, Scott.
SIMON: Let me ask you both. How did this happen? I mean, knowledgeable observers had been saying for years, there just can't be an American pope. What happened?
DETROW: You know, the funny thing is that Cardinal Prevost didn't think it would happen either. He sent a note to one of his close friends right before the conclave began. And he said, there's not going to be an American pope. I'm sleeping well at night. That friend told another friend of theirs - a nun named Sister Therese - and she responded, oops, he forgot about the Holy Spirit.
SIMON: (Laughter).
DETROW: And whether it was the Holy Spirit or other dynamics at work, what happened was that, on one hand, Pope Francis had really seen something in Prevost and elevated him. And in the last year of his papacy, Prevost was one of the closest aides to Pope Francis. They would meet for hours at a time on Saturday mornings. And it was almost like, in retrospect, pope school. Francis was teaching him how to run the church, how to navigate the dynamics of world politics.
So a lot of the cardinals who wanted to continue Francis' path looked to Prevost. But at the same time, a lot of the conservative cardinals in the conclave - the detractors of Pope Francis, who wanted a stylistic change - they saw Prevost as somebody who would be a much more stable leader, steady leader, thoughtful, thinking six or seven steps ahead, as opposed to the kind of on-the-fly leadership style of Pope Francis. So they though he's our guy, as well, and that's how he quickly emerged as the pope.
SIMON: Scott Detrow, let me ask about his childhood. Robert Prevost grew up going to predawn mass with his two brothers, John and Louis. Went to White Sox games. Once got tickets to "Bozo's Circus," which is not easy.
DETROW: Yeah.
SIMON: He sometimes played priest using an ironing board.
DETROW: He did.
SIMON: Yeah. And gave out Necco candies as Communion wafers, right?
DETROW: Yeah. He was an unusually devout kid. He became an altar boy at a young age, as happens when you have two older siblings who are already doing an activity. And quickly, he was the other kid that the other altar boys were looking to, to take cues from. He would teach them how to use the thurifer that you swing up and down for the incense and how to carry the cross. And he was going through this at the time that the Catholic Church totally changed. Vatican II happens and changes the mass from Latin to English here in the U.S.
And one of his classmates told me of this wise, old, you know, sixth or seventh grade Robert Prevost looking at the young altar boys and saying, you all have it so easy now. But he's somebody who knew he wanted to be a priest from age 12 or 13, and that's pretty remarkable.
SIMON: Daniel, can you tell us the story about when he got a toy truck?
BURKE: Sure. Yeah. So he got a toy truck for Christmas. He loves trucks. One of his neighbors was a truck driver. And he would just go out into the front yard and just look at this truck. It became like a lifelong fascination with cars and trucks and all kinds of things. So he was really excited to get this truck on Christmas. But his parents were pretty devout Christians. And they said, you know, it'd be really nice if you offered that gift to someone down the street who doesn't have a Christmas gift today.
And Prevost said, you know, he kind of grumbled about it. He wasn't super happy, but he did it. And he learned an important lesson, that there's always people who are less fortunate for you, and it's your job to take care of them.
SIMON: Let me ask you about Robert Prevost's time in Peru. It was a dangerous time for Peru and Peruvians. Sendero Luminoso - a Maoist guerrilla group - was very active at that point. And the church was often a target of attacks.
BURKE: That's right. So Sendero Luminoso, over time, over the...
SIMON: Shining path was the...
BURKE: Shining Path. That's right. They really started to target the Catholic Church. They were trying to start a peasant war, like Mao had done in China. And so they just had these vicious tactics. One of their tactics was to load a donkey, a burro, with bombs and send it into a marketplace and have it explode. And they see - increasingly see the Catholic Church and Robert Prevost as an enemy. Prevost is offered a bodyguard. He said, no, I don't think so. This is going to take too much attention or put too much attention on me.
And at one point, it gets so dangerous that the head of the Augustinian says, hey, guys, I need an exit plan. I need you to come up with a way out of this. And they all get together, including Robert Prevost and say, no, we're staying. Our witness means nothing if we leave these people during their darkest hour.
SIMON: I was struck by a quote. Robert Prevost said, "when you're a missionary, you just learn how to do everything from electronics to auto mechanics."
DETROW: And it's true. That's the way he led the parishes he was in charge of. That's the way he led the order that he was in charge of for 12 years. And that's the way he led the Diocese of Chiclayo. You know, so many bishops at a certain point, no matter where you are in the world, carry themselves with a certain air and authority and glide through life, and they're chauffeured around. That wasn't him.
There was a lot of flooding, a lot of natural disasters in Chiclayo at the time that he lived and worked there. And one of the first times that the church charity group was responding to flooding, the woman who was organizing it sees Prevost pull up in a truck filled with food to distribute. And she told us, I've worked with four or five bishops. I never saw a bishop in a pickup truck. But that's the way, you know (laughter)...
SIMON: I don't think I've ever seen a bishop in a pickup truck.
DETROW: He's a hands-on leader. He's not a micromanager, but when he sees things that needs fixing, he does it himself. A priest told us how one year for Palm Sunday, they ran out of palm. So Bishop Prevost takes a machete, goes to a nearby palm tree and hacks down some palms to distribute.
SIMON: And, Scott, didn't take long for a disagreement with President Trump.
DETROW: No.
SIMON: What issues do you think Pope Leo sees as being most vital now?
DETROW: You know, I think, first and foremost in his heart is the issue of immigration and the issue of treating migrants as people. That's something that goes back to when he was a bishop in Peru. There was the Venezuelan migrant crisis. Just as eventually America dealt with it, millions of people were fleeing political instability, were fleeing desperate poverty and making their way into Peru. And as a bishop, he put an aggressive plan in place to help these people, to get them housing, to get them food.
He would go to food pantries, and he would sit at a table with Venezuelan migrants and share a meal with them and make sure that people saw him saying, you know, we're on the same level. So that's something that, as President Trump's immigration policies made their way through Chicago, among other places - and Prevost, you know, on one hand, he has often tried to avoid politics throughout his life, especially in Peru. He never wanted to be seen as a political actor sding with one party as another, but he's never been afraid to speak to issues. And what he said when he was criticizing Trump's immigration policies and his policies with the war in Iran was, I'm speaking from the Gospel.
SIMON: I got to put you both on the spot. Pope Leo, lifelong fan of the Chicago White Sox. There's a notable photo of him at their last World Series in attendance in 2005. For the past two years, the White Sox have been just about the worst team in baseball...
DETROW: Oh, yeah.
SIMON: ...Losing over a hundred games. This year, as we speak, they're in the playoffs.
DETROW: Divine intervention.
SIMON: That's what I was going to ask.
DETROW: Well, Pope Leo was asked, and he said, no comment.
SIMON: Yes.
DETROW: But look, among other things, the night the Sox clinched a playoff berth, the buses they loaded into - Prevost brand buses, you know?
SIMON: Oh...
DETROW: So...
SIMON: This is all coming together now.
DETROW: Signs and wonders.
SIMON: NPR's Scott Detrow and Daniel Burke. Their fine new book, "American Pope: Leo XIV's Road From The South Side Of Chicago To Vatican City," Thank you both so much for being with us.
DETROW: Thank you, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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