SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
When the U.S. withdrew from Afghanistan in 2021, Western capitals hoped isolation would force the Taliban to moderate. But five years after that American withdrawal, the Taliban remains firmly in power, and they aren't backing down on their hard-line policies on issues like girls' education. So at what point does diplomatic isolation become diplomatic denial? And is it time for the world to recognize the Taliban? NPR's D. Parvaz was recently in Afghanistan, and she's with me now in the studio. Hi, D.
D PARVAZ, BYLINE: Hey, Sacha.
PFEIFFER: So the Taliban reinstated the Islamic Emirate and is in full control of the country. What is the current relationship between the Taliban and the United States?
PARVAZ: Well, the U.S. set conditions five years ago tied to things like security and women's rights before resuming some diplomatic relations. But so far, no dice. In August, Aisha Wahab, an Afghan American congresswoman in California, said that the U.S. should pursue diplomacy with Afghanistan, even with the Taliban in charge. And she laid this out as a path to influencing the Taliban to change some of their restrictive policies.
The State Department didn't respond to my questions on U.S.-Taliban relations. But I spoke to Ronald Neumann, U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan during the George W. Bush administration, and he says, despite the counterargument, the U.S. needs to talk to the Taliban about things like counterterrorism.
RONALD NEUMANN: So in the end, you do a diplomatic tap dance. You'd say, I'm not recognizing you, but I talk to you.
PFEIFFER: Are there any countries that formerly recognized the Taliban?
PARVAZ: Just Russia. But there are over a dozen diplomatic missions open in Afghanistan, including China, India and Saudi Arabia. Also, some European countries deporting Afghans have had to enter into some dialogue with the Taliban.
PFEIFFER: And within Afghanistan, how is that viewed?
PARVAZ: Well, the Taliban publicizes every bit of progress. Meetings with foreign dignitaries are detailed annually on what they call their activities and achievements booklets, and those are available to the media. But how it's going depends on who you ask. Hidayatullah Zahib (ph) is an author, researcher, and he focuses on geopolitical and sociological issues. And he says the main obstacle for the Taliban in terms of diplomacy is their entire ideology.
HIDAYATULLAH ZAHIB: (Non-English language spoken).
PARVAZ: But he adds it's unlikely that they will abandon that ideology. Some, like Obaidullah Baheer, believe that the Taliban could progress in their diplomatic efforts, despite the challenges within the country. Baheer lectures on civil society and democracy at the American University in Afghanistan. And he says the issue, in part, is that the Taliban can't get traction with the Trump administration.
OBAIDULLAH BAHEER: Yet, I think, diplomatically, the Taliban have been doing well. Their main Achilles' heel and their main point of failure has been their internal policies, especially their social policies.
PARVAZ: And those policies are slow to change, he says, due to the Taliban's centralized power structure. But he says he's confident that change will come. Now NPR reached out to the Afghan Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but we didn't hear back.
PFEIFFER: There are 40 million people in Afghanistan. How do the Taliban's relations with the outside world affect all those people?
PARVAZ: Profoundly, Sacha. U.N. figures put 90% of Afghans at near or below the poverty line. International aid was a lifeline for their economy. So the bottom has dropped out for millions of Afghans, and they're experiencing shortages in food, medicine, housing, even electricity. Hidayatullah Zahib told me that it's not just a matter of resuming aid. Progress made in the 20 years that the U.S. was present in Afghanistan is unsustainable, he said, because it was rushed, and the infrastructure wasn't built to make it last. And without that and a steady cash flow, he says that in the short run, he doesn't see the Taliban being able to meet people's needs.
PFEIFFER: That is NPR's D. Parvaz. Thank you for that.
PARVAZ: Thanks. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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