MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Out and about today, I'm on the banks of the Potomac River. It's this stunning spring day. There are boats going past. We are here because over my right shoulder is the embassy of Sweden. Now, Sweden, you may recall, joined NATO two years ago - 2024. Challenging moment for the alliance. And their chief of defense, the general - General Michael Claesson - who is the supreme commander of Sweden's armed forces, is in town. So with all these questions about NATO and the future of the alliance, we decided to stop by the embassy and ask him, how's it going?
General, welcome. Nice to see you.
MICHAEL CLAESSON: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
KELLY: Sweden joined NATO two years ago.
CLAESSON: Right.
KELLY: Not a boring moment for the alliance.
CLAESSON: No, not at all.
KELLY: No.
CLAESSON: And not a boring moment for Sweden either.
KELLY: You're sitting here in Washington, so I need to ask you about some of the recent comments about NATO from Washington and specifically from the White House. Last week, President Trump described the NATO alliance as a one-way street. He said the U.S. spends billions to protect countries that will do nothing for America in a time of need. How do you react to that?
CLAESSON: Well, of course, it's - it feels somewhat unfair because back in 2001, the 9/11 situation, I, together with many of my countrymen, we have served in Afghanistan during tough times and basically shouldering sort of the security challenges that were global but also, in one way or another, also were directed against the U.S. So in that regard, I think that we are better than that, and I think that the alliance is still a valid role-player in the transatlantic security and is a major best buddy also to the U.S.
KELLY: President Trump has been demanding that U.S. allies join the war in Iran and help secure the Strait of Hormuz. He called NATO countries cowards for refusing to pitch in. His word. Will you pitch in? Will Sweden send warships to help the United States and Israel?
CLAESSON: At the end of the day, this is a political question. Do we have capabilities? Yes. Yes, many of the allies do have capabilities and - but it needs to be addressed also through the NATO channels to be dealt with politically. How do we balance that together with other NATO commitments that all the 32 allies have concluded that these are priorities for the alliance right now?
KELLY: Let me turn us to Ukraine. How's the war going in your estimation?
CLAESSON: Well, I was there a couple of weeks ago and it's - it was not a broken country. It's not a broken country.
KELLY: What makes you say that?
CLAESSON: They have suffered through a very tough winter with Russia particularly focusing on damaging the energy sector in a way that had made people literally freeze and in some cases also freeze to death. But this country is remarkably strong and resilient for many reasons that we don't have time to dwell on right now. But I think it's important not to make Russia 10 feet tall. And it's important not to diminish Ukraine because it's a strong country with a strong military, a very innovative military. And from a Swedish point of view, we feel that it is important to continue to support in all the ways we can.
KELLY: I guess the basic question prompted by all of this, given President Trump's comments about NATO that we've been talking about, given questions about the U.S.'s commitment to Ukraine and the fight there - if it came to it, could NATO stand on its own against Russia without the United States?
CLAESSON: It's a tricky question because it's always, it depends on. Of course, there are scenarios where NATO could be extremely challenged without U.S. capabilities, but I have very hard to see a situation where NATO would come to a situation of collective defense and the U.S. would not be there in any capacity. It's needless to say that U.S. is a really important ally, and the burden shifting would also have to take place in an orderly way to make sure that we don't end up in a challenged security situation compared to now.
KELLY: You were saying, as we sat down at the conference table here in the lovely Swedish embassy in Washington, that you try to get to Washington once a year or so...
CLAESSON: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Have conversations with counterparts...
CLAESSON: Yeah, yeah.
KELLY: ...Take the temperature of what's going on here. I wonder, do you feel a sense of whiplash, General Claesson, landing in Washington in 2026, having conversations with an administration that sees so many issues central to your job, whether it's Ukraine or Greenland or the NATO alliance, so differently from two years ago, than the administration that was in the White House then?
CLAESSON: (Laughter) Well, of course, there is a difference, but I wouldn't necessarily call it whiplash. There's more of a steady state in the military-to-military relations. And of course, the military-to-military relations are impacted by policies and changes to policies and politics. No question about that.
KELLY: Does it still feel like a two-way street, the respect...
CLAESSON: Yes.
KELLY: ...The constructive dialogue?
CLAESSON: Yes, it does, with the fact that Europe needs to take more responsibility for our own conventional security. And again, we have heeded the call. We understand that.
KELLY: General Michael Claesson. He is Sweden's chief of defense and supreme commander of Sweden's armed forces. Thank you for your time.
CLAESSON: Thank you so much for having me.
KELLY: And you can hear more of my conversation with General Claesson, including his thoughts on the future of security in the Arctic, on NPR's national security podcast Sources & Methods. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts.
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