SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
The U.S. continued its strikes on Iran this week, and Tehran responded by hitting U.S. targets across the region as well as tankers being escorted by the U.S. in the Strait of Hormuz. Iranian-backed militias and proxies are now playing a bigger role in the conflict. This week, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia carried out airstrikes on Iranian-backed militias in Iraq. We're joined now by Ray Takeyh. He's a senior fellow for Middle East studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. Thank you so much for being with us.
RAY TAKEYH: Thank you for having me.
SIMON: We hear a lot about Hezbollah in Lebanon, for example, which Iran helped form, but we haven't heard as much in recent years about Shia militias in places like Iraq. How active are these groups?
TAKEYH: The Shia militias were really - came to their own in Iraq in the aftermath of the U.S. invasion in 2003, when the Shia community began to mobilize politically. And, of course, there was a civil war in Iraq that had a sectarian color to it, and that's where Iran really became active in mobilizing various Shia groups into militias. Not all Shia militias were under Iranian control, but some of the critical ones were, particularly Kata'ib (ph) Hezbollah, which is this core ally in that country today.
SIMON: And how much support do these armed groups get from Iran?
TAKEYH: In terms of logistics and military and so forth, it's quite substantial. But many of these Shia militias and their representatives are in some ways now integrated into Iraqi political structure and ministries, and that gives them access to the resources of Iraq, but also at the same time, gives them additional support from Iran. So in the sense, Iran has its tentacles into the bureaucracy of the Iraqi government, such as Ministry of Intelligence. And that's where a lot of influence comes.
SIMON: Help us understand the balance between these groups being outright proxies and the degree to which they act at the command of Iran or in Iran's interests.
TAKEYH: Well, not all proxies are alike, and Hezbollah in Lebanon has always been Iran's most important ally and its most compliant ally. Houthis, on the other hand, in Yemen, tend to have their own mind, and they tend to cooperate with Iran when it's in their interest as they see their defined interests at the time.
Shia militias are a little different stories. The Badr Brigade, which is the one Iranians created in the 1980s to fight Iraq, that's actually less responsive to Iranian direction today than Kata'ib Hezbollah, which takes a lot of logistical assistance from Iran. So it varies from group to group, but the core groups are much more in line with the Iranian objectives today.
SIMON: But they still have their own domestic agenda, certainly.
TAKEYH: They must because they're still operating in a contested political environment in Iraq, and they have to abide by the kind of complexity of Iraqi politics. But Iran has an important source of leverage over Iraqi politics because of its connections to the Shia community or at least important segments of it.
SIMON: What role might they play in a widening conflict?
TAKEYH: Well, as both sides escalate incrementally - the United States and Iran - they both try to have as much resources at their disposal and points of leverage. For the United States, the points of leverage are obvious - putting pressure on the Iranian economy through selective military strikes and punishing strikes in the hope that it eventually comes to terms with the United States.
For the Iranians, the points of leverage are less obvious, but also have proven quite powerful. For instance, closing the straits in the Persian Gulf and activating the proxies as a means of having another source of retaliation against the United States.
SIMON: Mr. Takeyh, Iraq called the Saudi U.S. bombing there this week a flagrant violation of its sovereignty. Could bombing the countries where these militia are based and where they operate widen the conflict and further destabilize the region?
TAKEYH: It certainly has that feel to it, and sometimes widening the conflict doesn't necessarily reduce the possibility of conflict coming to an end. It sort of reminds me when Richard Nixon started bombing Cambodia in order to get peace in Vietnam. It didn't work then. I'm not quite sure if expansion of this conflict works in this case as well. These groups now may actually retaliate against Saudi Arabia - they're pledging to do so - and that creates another dynamic of violence - counterstrike and strike and so forth - that we have seen across this region.
SIMON: Does the Iranian relationship with these groups give Iran a stronger hand when it comes to ostensibly and perhaps making some kind of agreement with the U.S. to end the conflict?
TAKEYH: Well, both sides, United States and Iran, are seemingly open to diplomatic engagement. However, they both want the diplomatic outcome to be defined by their terms of preference. So at this point, they're both using all points of leverage that they have in order to impose those demands on the other side. And that's why you don't have negotiations that are meaningful at this point because both sides think they're going to pressure the other one into compliance.
And the president said it, I think, yesterday, when President Trump said, look, at some point, they can't take this level of bombing and hits, and therefore, they're going to come to the table and make an agreement that is satisfactory to us. That is the logic of incremental escalation. That is the logic of saying we can take the pain more than they can. It's a dubious logic in past encounters on American military affairs. Whether it'll succeed in here, I'm not sure. I have my doubts.
SIMON: Ray Takeyh is with the Council on Foreign Relations. Thank you so much for being with us.
TAKEYH: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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