MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
What's the right way to describe the situation unfolding right now between India and Pakistan? Crisis? Brink of all-out war? Well, here is the language Pakistan's military spokesman, Lieutenant General Ahmed Sharif, chose this week as his country shot down Indian drones which he says were flying over major Pakistani cities, including Karachi and Lahore.
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AHMED SHARIF: This naked aggression continues, and the armed forces are on high degree of alert and neutralizing them as we speak. This is a serious, serious provocation.
KELLY: Now, it's worth noting this is the latest escalation in a conflict that has run for decades. The spark? A militant attack last month in Indian-administered Kashmir. Gunmen opened fire on tourists in a meadow killing 26. India has blamed Pakistan for that attack. And when I sat down with Vinay Kwatra, India's ambassador to the U.S., in our studios today, I asked about that claim and whether India has evidence to support it.
VINAY KWATRA: We have blamed terrorists with clear links, support, sponsorship and training factories in Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
KELLY: Do you have evidence?
KWATRA: I would - if you allow me, I would want to clarify this for your audience in terms of this perspective. So 22 April, killing of 26 civilian in presence of their wives, presence of their children - innocent children - was the first trigger, was the original where it started. So what we did - what India did on 6, 7, May 9, was actually a very calibrated, measured, proportionate response. From our perspective, that brought the finality to the 22 April question.
KELLY: You're saying what India did...
KWATRA: We did...
KELLY: ...Was in response.
KWATRA: ...In response. If...
KELLY: So to push you on this, do you have evidence? You're saying this was state sponsored, that there are links...
KWATRA: Yeah.
KELLY: ...To Pakistan's officials...
KWATRA: Yeah.
KELLY: ...To Pakistan's government. Do you have evidence?
KWATRA: Yeah. You are not at all pushing me. I think it's a fairly valid question to ask. We have ample of evidence which - we have very clear communication nodes that go into Pakistan, that link to Pakistan. We have eyewitness evidences of the four terrorists. We have plenty of intelligence-based inputs which are available, which, in fullness of time, would come out. But we have plenty of evidence to establish that these terrorists were based, supported, trained in Pakistan. I think...
KELLY: Have you shown this evidence to Pakistan? Have you given them a chance to respond?
KWATRA: Yeah. We have gone through that story many times before. I'll give you the most dastardly example of 2008 26/11. That's our 9/11. India's 9/11 Mumbai terror attacks in which several American nationals were also brutally killed. We went actually far beyond sharing the evidence. We co-opted them into the investigation process. And after a while, they said, look, this has - no. So we don't think it would really serve any purpose. We have very clearly established. So let me, if I can complete that...
KELLY: You don't believe that showing the evidence to Pakistan in this moment...
KWATRA: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Would complete any purpose? That's what you're saying?
KWATRA: No, I don't think it will serve really any purpose.
KELLY: I did want to push you on what India's objective is...
KWATRA: Oh, yes.
KELLY: ...What the end game is for the strikes this week because as you yourself have acknowledged, the militant attacks have continued. They have not been deterred when India has struck back in the past.
KWATRA: Yeah, but we are a responsible country. We don't harbor terrorists. We don't train them. We don't equip them. We don't use them as an instrument of state policy. So when we launched attack on 6, 7 May, from our intent, purposes, objectives, we had met our objective by attacking those terrorist camp. But then on the night of 7, 8 May, Pakistan started another round of attack, so we had to respond to that. Yesterday night, midnight, this morning, they started another round of attack. So if you go back to 22 April...
KELLY: I understand both sides are shooting and attacking across the border.
KWATRA: No, not both. They are starting. We are responding. They started with 22 April. We responded. We closed the matter. They again started something. We responded. We closed the matter. They again started today. We responded. We have closed.
KELLY: I'm - we're looking at each other, and I'm smiling because my guess is, if Pakistan's ambassador were sitting next to you, he would say, no, they started it. We responded. They started it. The question is, what's the off ramp? How does it end?
KWATRA: OK. From our perspective, our simple objective, intent and purpose behind this was to bring terrorists to justice, hold them accountable and also bring justice to the victims. From our perspective, that's a limited aspect. I am only concerned about Pakistan to the extent they train these terrorists. And we have been absolutely nonprovocative. It's designed to be nonescalatory. We are not doing warmongering. We are not calling it naked aggression. We are not saying we are nuclear power (ph).
KELLY: What role, if any, do you see, ambassador, for the U.S.? And I'm asking because U.S. Vice President JD Vance says, this is none of our business. He gave an interview yesterday to Fox in when he said this.
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VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE: We're not going to get involved in the middle of a war that's fundamentally none of our business and has nothing to do with America's ability to control it.
KELLY: He's responding to calls for the U.S. or someone to get involved and help mediate an off ramp to this. Do you want the U.S. to get involved?
KWATRA: Sure. So first up, we have been totally overwhelmed by the kind of support that India has received in the condemnation of these terrorist attack and condolences. President Trump was the first world leader to call Prime Minister Modi. After we launched our response to the 22 April attack, my national security advisor spoke to interim National Security Advisor and Secretary of State Rubio. So we have been in robust communication, and we have...
KELLY: Would you like to...
KWATRA: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Have a more robust role...
KWATRA: I was coming - I was coming to that.
KELLY: ...Of the United States...
KWATRA: I was coming to that. And what we have told them is that the U.S. would do the whole world a great service by telling Pakistan to stop supporting its activities and stop supporting terrorism. So I think U.S. can impress upon Pakistan to really stop its support to the terrorism, and that would be, as I said, a great service because our interest is only that. Our interest is nothing else there.
KELLY: It does not sound as though the White House is inclined to get involved, so the U.S. is inclined to get involved (ph). Do you need the U.S. or some outside mediator to prevent this from spiraling further out of control?
KWATRA: We need the U.S. and the whole world needs the U.S. to tell Pakistan to stop its support to terrorism. That's my crisp message.
KELLY: Vinay Kwatra is India's ambassador to the U.S. Thank you very much for coming in.
KWATRA: Thank you so much for having me on your show. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
KELLY: And we have also invited Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S. for an interview. We hope to bring you that conversation Monday on Morning Edition. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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