AILSA CHANG, HOST:
The White House has tapped a new acting leader for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention after firing its new director, Susan Monarez, earlier this week. The new new director is now Jim O'Neill. He's currently the deputy secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services. He is not a physician nor a scientist. He is a close ally of Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. In response to Monarez's dismissal, three senior officials collected their belongings and walked out of the building yesterday for good.
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DANIEL JERNIGAN: Let's get the politics out of public health.
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JERNIGAN: Let's get back to the objectivity and let the science lead us because that's how we get to the best decisions for public health.
CHANG: That is Dr. Daniel Jernigan speaking to a large crowd carrying flowers and signs. Jernigan was the director of the CDC's National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases until he resigned this week. His resignation comes after three decades at the agency.
Dr. Jernigan, welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
JERNIGAN: Thanks.
CHANG: So tell us why you felt compelled to resign after such a long time at the CDC. I mean, 30 years.
JERNIGAN: Well, we have always been trying to follow evidence-based approaches to making decisions. And over the last several weeks to months, we have been presented with a process that we can't see how it is using scientific processes and doing things the way good science is done. When Dr. Monarez was fired from her position, it became clear that there would not be leadership that would be able to promote that evidence-based approach to things. And for that, all three of us decided that now is the time to go.
CHANG: And why do you personally believe Dr. Susan Monarez was fired from the CDC?
JERNIGAN: Yes, there are a number of rumors out there. There's different discussions that I have heard, but my understanding was that she was asked to fire myself, Dr. Deb Houry, our chief medical officer, and Dr. Daskalakis, our center director for our immunization group. And she refused to do that. In addition, I understand that she refused to sign the statements about the recommendations for COVID vaccines from the last vaccine meeting. And because of those things, that's my understanding of why she was released.
CHANG: So before your resignation, you were under the assumption that you were on the chopping block eventually, anyway.
JERNIGAN: That's my understanding, yeah, that the outcome would be the same either way.
CHANG: Yeah. Well, let's talk about the new new director of the CDC. In his confirmation hearing to become deputy secretary, Jim O'Neill said that he was a staunch supporter of vaccines, but he has also criticized the CDC's response to the pandemic. And now that he's been selected as acting director of the CDC, in your view, does he have what it takes to lead the agency?
JERNIGAN: So I don't know him. I don't really know his past work. However, I do know that the CDC deserves having a scientist with good public health background that understands what it means to follow good science, use processes for determining evidence and make recommendations that can withstand the test of time.
CHANG: Well, for a lot of people who are watching all of this play out, it looks like the CDC is in tremendous turmoil, to say the least. How concerned are you about the future of this agency?
JERNIGAN: I'm very concerned. This is an agency that I have worked at for 30 years. It is populated with extremely smart people that are very dedicated and who have been through a lot of different complicating and challenging times over the last many years. They will be able to have resiliency. They'll be able to get through if they are supported and can be allowed to do that.
The secretary needs to help resource the Centers for Disease Control. He also needs to help - to have much more objective scientific work and have more transparent approaches to it. If that could be done, I don't know if the secretary wants to do that or not, but if that could be done, we could save what is the global preeminent public health agency.
CHANG: Well, in the meantime, where does this leave the public? Because since President Trump took office, health agencies have, you know, faced mass layoffs, funding cuts, the gutting of federal websites. I mean, you've talked about all of this. It's left a lot of people wondering who or what to trust. So what are you personally telling your friends or your neighbors about how to make informed health care decisions right now? I'm sure people have approached you about that, yeah?
JERNIGAN: The CDC website has a lot of information on it that has been prepared by CDC. Most recently, some of the recommendations coming out from the secretary aren't on our website, and so much of what's on there is still very solid. However, as we go forward, I can't say if we'll be able to tell the difference between what was arrived at with evidence-based approaches versus ideology-based approaches. And so my recommendation is to be cautious, and it may be that we need to have alternatives out there that can communicate which parts of our CDC recommendations are actually the ones that you should follow.
CHANG: Well, I do realize you just resigned this week, but I have to ask - what's next for you, you think?
JERNIGAN: Well, I have been in public health for over 30 years and prior to that, in internal medicine. And so I'm getting up there. I don't have to do anything.
CHANG: This is retirement.
JERNIGAN: And so...
CHANG: Resignation and retirement.
JERNIGAN: Well, it could be retirement or it could be I get to do whatever I want at this point (laughter). But I...
CHANG: Sounds good to me.
JERNIGAN: I clearly will be working in public health because that's really what matters to me, and that's what protects Americans and protects people around the globe.
CHANG: Dr. Daniel Jernigan. Earlier this week, he resigned from his position as director of the CDC's National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases. Thank you very much for your time and for your service.
JERNIGAN: Thank you very much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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