SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Remember when "The Matrix" came out, and everyone couldn't stop doing - going to bend away from the mic - the slow-motion, backwards-bending bullet dodge?
(SOUNDBITE OF SLOW-MOTION BULLETS FIRING)
DETROW: I think that was one of the first fight scenes that really stuck with me, and even though it's become kind of a cheesy trope over the years, it is still iconic. But what pulls a fight scene beyond the cheesy and into the great? We will talk about this with two of our biggest in-house fight scene fans, NPR's Megan Lim and Ryan Benk. Hey there.
MEGAN LIM, BYLINE: Hiya (ph).
RYAN BENK, BYLINE: Hey. Sometimes cheese is good, though, you know?
LIM: Yeah, right (ph).
DETROW: Can you both, like, validate that I kind of - I did the full "Matrix"?
BENK: You did. You did...
LIM: Yeah. No, for the listeners at home, Scott committed.
BENK: ...But in your chair.
DETROW: In my chair 'cause here's the thing - I can't bend over backwards that much anymore. It's hard. It's hard.
(LAUGHTER)
LIM: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
DETROW: So here's where I'm coming from - like, I appreciate a good fight scene, but I don't know if I'm, like, going around thinking about it. What were the movies that first made you think about them in this way and made you really love action movies?
LIM: Well, I think, for me, I'd have to say "Kung Fu Hustle," which is actually the same choreographer as "The Matrix," funnily enough. And then that kind of, like, led me down this rabbit hole of, like, really loving, like, the '80s Hong Kong movies, you know, "Police Story," Jackie Chan, obviously, in that and then, like, carrying over into, like, all of the incredible work that Jackie Chan did in America in the 2000s. I mean, "Rush Hour" has to be - "Rush Hour 2," specifically.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "RUSH HOUR 2")
JACKIE CHAN: (As Lee) That means I go this way, and you go this way.
CHRIS TUCKER: (As Carter) I go that way, you go this way?
CHAN: (As Lee) Yes.
TUCKER: (As Carter) OK.
LIM: It's just fun. I think that it really instilled that appreciation for something that is, like, its main purpose is to be entertainment, but it's being executed with such a high level of skill and charisma and respect for martial art.
BENK: Yeah, and the timing's really important. Like, so, like Megan, I mean, I really grew up with the classics when you think of a fighting movie or you think of martial arts, like "Enter The Dragon."
(SOUNDBITE OF BLOWS LANDING)
BENK: Some of the things that even influenced me afterwards was going from things like "Enter The Dragon" that I used to watch with my grandfather and my father to things like "Ip Man" starring Donnie Yen, which was about the man who actually trained Bruce Lee. Growing up with my immigrant father, you really couldn't escape any of these martial arts movies. It was just kind of part and parcel of what the immigrant dad, the Latino dad, was interested in.
DETROW: Yeah.
BENK: And you also couldn't outrun "The Running Man" himself, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Every American '80s and '90s action classic from "Predator" to "True Lies" - if it went boom, and it included the absolute cheesiest one-liners, it was on a TV somewhere in my house.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE RUNNING MAN")
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER: (As Ben Richards) Give you a lift?
DETROW: So what - like, zooming out, what do you think the evolution of these movies and these types of action sequences are?
BENK: You know, what's kind of weird is I grew up right in the middle of the millennial generation to see things go from cheesy and the one-liners...
DETROW: Yeah.
BENK: ...To go to this early 2000s, which was, like, all about this Jason Bourne, what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-this-shot type of gritty attitude of filmmaking.
DETROW: Yeah.
BENK: The fights were brutal. The blood and gore was on display. That is, if you could actually see it through the shaky cam...
DETROW: Right.
BENK: ...And the quick cuts.
DETROW: Just constant motion, yeah.
BENK: Yeah, the dark lighting and muted colors. I think at this point, there was an evolution away from the campy slapstick punches to this real-life aesthetic. And perhaps the best argument for what I call the Bourne ubiquity of fight scenes was how we saw everyone's favorite secret agent evolve.
LIM: (Laughter).
DETROW: Trademark.
(SOUNDBITE OF PUNCHES LANDING)
DETROW: We're talking about Mr. Bond here.
BENK: We were talking about Bond, James Bond. My favorites were the Daniel Craig movies, and you saw him crushing heads against sinks, drowning enemies, smashing through walls. He was big, tough and rough around the edges, and he didn't always kill people with the civilized weapon of MI6...
DETROW: Yeah.
BENK: ...That silenced Walther PPK. Sometimes he just, you know, took that pistol and beat you to death with it.
LIM: (Laughter).
DETROW: I guess I hadn't fully, even though it's probably a really obvious connection, like, the Pierce Brosnan to Daniel Craig transition...
LIM: I love Pierce Brosnan, though.
DETROW: ...Is entirely - I love them both.
LIM: They're fun.
DETROW: I like - like, I feel like I like the Pierce Brosnan just, like, James Bond hamminess (ph) of it all, you know, 'cause that's kind of the end of that era.
BENK: Right.
DETROW: And then you're right, Daniel Craig is, like, bleeding from the mouth and, like, you know, all messed up, and there's glass sticking out of his head.
BENK: He's got bullet hole scars and, you know, like, all that good stuff.
DETROW: Yeah.
LIM: I mean, to go back a little bit to the Bourne trilogy...
(LAUGHTER)
LIM: I love those movies, and it kind of popularizes the way that the quick cuts became kind of ubiquitous in action movies, as you say. But the thing about the Bourne movies that's different is that I think they are really smart about using those quick cuts to cut to the action. Whereas, after that, what frustrates me often about a lot of the American movies is that we're now seeing cinematography that uses quick cuts to cut away from the action in order to hide bad choreography because they don't want to show the hit hitting. And so we're cutting away from the punches.
DETROW: Can I just pause you, and can you tell me more about this 'cause you were clearly passionate about this? And why does it matter to you that you see the person get punched in the face and it looks real?
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: Just to put it that way 'cause I can feel the energy here.
LIM: I mean, for starters, like, I think that it's fine to want something to look authentic. But, B, I think that we're talking about what makes a good fight sequence. I think the cinematography is part of that.
DETROW: Yeah.
LIM: I think any good fight sequence has to be supported by cinematography that wants to highlight it...
DETROW: Yeah.
LIM: ...Cinematography that, like, wants to show people how hard the hit is hitting - you know? - that it looks like it's heavy and it looks like it hurts.
DETROW: Yeah.
LIM: I implore everyone to, next time you watch an action movie, see if that cuts away from the action or to it. And that can tell you a lot about how much this movie is, like, valuing the stunt choreography.
DETROW: Got it.
LIM: You know, if you are cutting away from it, you're admitting that this isn't good enough to show, in my opinion. And I think that's lazy.
DETROW: Do you feel like this should be respected as much as any other art that goes into a movie?
LIM: Exactly.
DETROW: As we get into the details of this, like, what do you think the important stylistic differences are between an action scene in the big American movies we were talking about versus the international movies that we started the conversation with?
LIM: I think, for me, the biggest differences stylistically is, like, you know, Iko Uwais - he's this incredible Indonesian star. He's in "The Raid," which is an - one of my favorite action movies of all time. And what makes his star power so different, I think, from a lot of the American casting choices is he is chosen for his skill in being able to showcase this type of martial art. You know, the shots there are him actually making those punches genuinely at that speed, you know? And a lot of the current action stars in America aren't doing that for real.
BENK: Yeah, I mean, the cultural exchange here is kind of fascinating. So much of modern action was influenced - modern American action was influenced by, you know, this country's collective and sometimes offensive obsession with martial arts in the '70s. But then, in turn, we see Asian cinema borrowing the sleeker, more realistic Hollywood aesthetic, and then it all kind of comes back again. One of my favorite examples of this is Park Chan-wook's 2003 cult classic "Oldboy," which has this, like, absolutely brutal, iconic hallway fight scene, shot in all one take. And now we see these long one-take fight scenes where they don't cut away from the brutality everywhere. And, you know, of course, the legendary Spike Lee then remakes it with Josh Brolin just a decade later.
LIM: Yeah, we don't talk about that.
(LAUGHTER)
DETROW: You both clearly have opinions, I think, is what we'll establish here (ph).
BENK: (Laughter) Yeah.
DETROW: Like, what if you had to...
BENK: Wait, I have an opinion, Scott?
(LAUGHTER)
LIM: Never. Never.
DETROW: If you had your way, what would you want going forward from action movies in Hollywood?
LIM: Put more Asian leads in there. Put more Asian choreographers behind the scene. I want - and I want the industry to have more faith in American audiences, that we can all handle more sophisticated action, and we want real stunts. Just look at Tom Cruise.
DETROW: There you go. Ryan?
BENK: Yeah, and to that end, I also just want to see action be fun again. Like, it seems like everything has gotten or is getting or has already had multiple gritty reboots. Even something like "John Wick," which isn't completely devoid of the one-liner humor, is still - it's, like, incredibly dark. It's incredibly shadowy, and it's kind of framed as this kind of grit-core picture. I just want to hear more Wilhelm screams and slapstick punches, Scott, is that really too much to ask for?
DETROW: Should we all fight to end this segment?
BENK: Let's do it.
DETROW: I guess the choreography would be hard on the radio. So I think that saves us.
LIM: (Laughter).
BENK: Do we want to get a referee in here?
LIM: I'll jump over this table right now, Scott.
(LAUGHTER)
BENK: No, you know, instead, listen, I'm just going to forfeit and say thanks for having me on.
DETROW: (Laughter) Megan Lim, Ryan Benk, thank you for coming on. We'll fight next time.
LIM: Thanks, Scott.
BENK: Appreciate it.
(SOUNDBITE OF ITZY'S "VOLTAGE (INSTRUMENTAL)") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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