ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
Shortly after James Comey was indicted last night on charges of lying to Congress, the former FBI director posted this video on social media.
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JAMES COMEY: My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial and keep the faith.
SHAPIRO: President Trump spent years promising retribution against his enemies, and Comey was high on that enemies list for leading the investigation into Russian involvement in the 2016 elections. To get the vengeance he sought, Trump fired the prosecutor in charge of the Eastern District of Virginia. This week, he installed his former personal lawyer in the job, even though she had never prosecuted a case in her career. The grand jury approved two felony charges shortly before the statute of limitations expired on the alleged offense. Today, in front of the Marine One helicopter, Trump insisted the case is about justice, not revenge.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Mr. President.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It's also about the fact...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Mr. President.
TRUMP: ...That you can't let this go on. They are sick, radical left people, and they can't get away with it.
SHAPIRO: This direct White House involvement in criminal cases shatters norms that have held for more than half a century. Carol Leonnig has covered White Houses and the Justice Department for decades, first at The Washington Post, and now she's an investigative correspondent with MSNBC, and she's co-author of the forthcoming book "Injustice: How Politics And Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department." Good to talk to you again.
CAROL LEONNIG: And you too, Ari.
SHAPIRO: You've described this moment as surreal. How so?
LEONNIG: I was working and reporting on the likelihood that the former FBI director would be indicted in the coming days and then hours. And even while I was reporting it, I didn't believe it would actually happen. And then it did.
You know, this is such a sea change, Ari, because our American justice system is built on objectivity and facts and not politically driven revenge tours. And here you had a series of career prosecutors, seasoned people, say there's really not evidence to bring this case. They were either fired or resigned under pressure, and the indictment was brought anyway because the president ordered it up.
SHAPIRO: When I read the indictment itself, it's one of the more bare-bones legal documents I've ever seen. It does not specify what the false statements are that Comey allegedly made. What does that tell you?
LEONNIG: Well, it tells me there was a rush, which is what we were reporting in real time. They were racing to meet the five-year statute of limitations, with a lot of foot-dragging by prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia saying, this really isn't a great case. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. But there was a rush.
And, you know, imagine you're Lindsey Halligan, the new U.S. attorney that Trump just installed. She's formerly a White House senior staff associate and one of his defense lawyers. She's never prosecuted a case in her life. Imagine you're her. You arrive at work on Monday, and on Thursday, you're presenting evidence before a grand jury of 23 people who live in Northern Virginia and explaining to them the evidence that you have amassed that former director Comey lied to Congress. That's pretty challenging, in your best work.
SHAPIRO: Does the fact that the grand jury actually approved these charges mean that there is something here? Does that give the case some amount of credibility?
LEONNIG: So the standard, Ari, for a indictment in a grand jury is probable cause. It's pretty low. So it doesn't mean that there's strong evidence. It means there's evidence. And honestly, a grand jury is also a one-sided event. A prosecutor says, here are the facts. Here's my witness. Here's my case agent from the FBI. He's going to tell you what happened. He's going to tell you why he thinks a crime occurred. And there's no other voice. In other words, James Comey's lawyer isn't there to say, but wait a minute.
SHAPIRO: A cynical person might say everything is political these days, so this is one more political thing. Can you explain why this really is such a sea change?
LEONNIG: After all my years covering a host of White Houses and Justice Departments, I have never seen a president basically steamroll over a federal prosecutor's office and say, you will indict. You will be fired until you indict. And that is what is so disturbing.
SHAPIRO: President Trump has said he wants to see more indictments, and he's named names - the financier and philanthropist George Soros, New York Attorney Genera Letitia James, California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff and more. What do the events of the last 24 hours tell you about what the future might hold?
LEONNIG: It's starting to look a little bit like there's a taste of blood in people's mouths now that Comey has been indicted and that there's a kind of rabidness, a desire to get more of the targets on Donald Trump's hit list. And sources have been telling me since late last night that there are a host of other grand juries that are now ramping up, that there are efforts to go after more aggressively a host of people. Now that Donald Trump knows that he can get his No. 1 target indicted, there seems to be a groundswell of some of his loyalists and allies trying to make similar cases in other places.
SHAPIRO: What guardrails remain?
LEONNIG: Well, I have to refer to Comey's language in his Instagram post the other night. You know, he has said on MSNBC and other places that he trusts that a judge in a federal court is going to be his saving grace, not because the judge is on his side, but because the judge knows facts, knows evidence, knows what it takes to actually bring a case and knows when it's politically interfered with. And I think that that is one guardrail I still see as well in the courts where I've worked.
SHAPIRO: That's Carol Leonnig of MSNBC. She's co-author of the forthcoming "Injustice: How Politics And Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department." Thank you so much.
LEONNIG: Thank you, Ari. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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