A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
As the minutes tick down toward a possible shutdown, let's turn to Republican Congressman Dusty Johnson. He is a House representative from the state of South Dakota. And together with Republican Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, he's introduced a bill that aims to eliminate government shutdowns entirely. Congressman, before we get to that, I saw yesterday how you said that there was an 85% chance of a shutdown. Where is that number today for you?
DUSTY JOHNSON: Well, it's north of 95%. The meeting at the White House yesterday didn't go particularly well, and so I think we're headed in the wrong direction.
MARTÍNEZ: Well, what's your argument in terms of why maybe there should be a shutdown or at least maybe not negotiating with Democrats right now?
JOHNSON: I don't think there should be a shutdown. I think shutdowns are stupid. I think a basic responsibility of Congress is to keep the government open. I was involved in efforts in 2019 to try to end the shutdown, trying to work across the aisle. I mean, I just - I think trying to get big policy concessions out of particularly a short-term funding deal is - No. 1, it never works. And No. 2, I think it isn't how we should be doing business.
MARTÍNEZ: So you're talking about adding $1.5 trillion in spending on a six-week stopgap funding deal is something that you...
JOHNSON: That's...
MARTÍNEZ: ...Think should not be on the table.
JOHNSON: Right. And let's just be honest. Just logistically, we don't have a deal, and it takes time to put together a deal. I mean, we don't know how much we want to fund the Department of Agriculture. We don't know how much we want to fund the Department of Interior. There are four different ideas about that - the Democratic and Republican Caucuses in both the House and the Senate. And so the idea that, you know, Chuck Schumer and others are advancing that we need to do that negotiation while the government is closed doesn't make any sense to me. The only thing Republicans are asking for right now - the only thing - is to do those negotiations while government is open. The mechanism by which we could get that done is a six-week continuing resolution. I just don't understand why this is that hard.
MARTÍNEZ: Well, Congressman, if Democrats feel that maybe one of their most important mandates from their constituents is to push back on President Trump, to push back on the Republican Party with no control of either chamber, wouldn't this be the only option in which they could do that?
JOHNSON: Not at all. I mean, a six-week CR is not going to be the last opportunity they have to address funding or appropriations over the course of the next year. I mean, six weeks is just six weeks. A year is 52 weeks. I mean, they are going to get another bite at the apple. I - they - this is about a base management strategy for them. There was a sense that they didn't fight hard enough in March, and so now they need to take every opportunity to fight. They are not going to get permanent changes in American policy as part of a six-week CR. The central question is, while we're doing our negotiations to fund government, should those negotiations take place with government open or government shut? It is clear to me they should take place while government is open.
MARTÍNEZ: You said that Democrats will get another bite at the apple. How much trust do you think there is in the Democratic Party that they will get that shot, especially with Donald Trump seemingly in firm control of the House and the Senate?
JOHNSON: No trust is required. If we pass the Republican - I shouldn't even say Republican. I mean, it was bipartisan out of the House. It was mostly a Republican proposal. But to fund government, we always need to have votes on both sides of the aisle in the Senate. So I don't want to turn this into anything more partisan than it needs to be, but no trust is required. If we do what we should do today - which is have the Senate pass the short-term CR - on November 21, we will need to have another vote. That's not trust. That will be the law of the land. That vote will fund government for the remainder of the fiscal year. That's not trust. That will be in the law. There will be Republican priorities as well as some Democratic priorities in that funding package. No trust is required. It is just about doing that negotiation while government is open. I don't know why Democrats would want it to be closed.
MARTÍNEZ: Considering how much leverage Republicans do have in these negotiations - controlling the House and the Senate, along with the White House - could a shutdown and then the associated service cuts and interruptions backfire on the Republican Party?
JOHNSON: When you look back through history, the party that gets blamed - and just as an aside, I would say, what a terrible political conversation, right? I mean, this is so often how the politicians do it. Rather than talking about real people - I mean, America, our country - getting wounded by shutdowns, we have a tendency to talk about politically who's going to get blamed. I mean, it's just - it's balderdash. It's D.C. games. But yeah, I mean, I'll take the bait.
In the - in history, the party that tries to leverage a shutdown for a policy win is the party that gets punished because ultimately one party's just asking to keep government open. The other party's asking for these exquisite concessions. Over time, the American people realize that whether it's the Republicans trying to get the border wall - that's an important topic - or other members of Congress now trying to deal with health insurance tax credits - that's an important topic, too - you're just not going to be able to secure those policy concessions as part of a six-week CR.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, you have proposed a bill to end government shutdowns, so tell us all about it. It's called the Eliminate Shutdowns Act.
JOHNSON: Shutdowns are stupid. This is not how we should be coming to policy agreements. And Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin and I have introduced the Eliminate Shutdowns Act. It makes it clear that we're not going to do this anymore. And incidentally, we're one of only a couple of countries in the world that do these shutdowns. What other countries do, in general, is when they can't reach an agreement by the deadline, the previous year's funding continues until an agreement is reached which changes that funding. That is, in essence, what our bill does. It triggers an automatic 14-day continuing resolution giving Congress time to finish their negotiations. And if they're not done at the end of the next 14 days, there'll be another 14-day CR trigger.
Now, listen, there still will be some pain when Congress doesn't get its work done. We won't be able to, you know, start new projects. We won't be able to invest in new priorities. We won't be able to cut areas of waste, fraud and abuse. It just continues the previous year's funding, and yet that is so much less disruptive than this absurdity we go through. When we send people home, we deny Americans access to the basic...
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
JOHNSON: ...Services they pay for all in the name of one party trying to gain political leverage.
MARTÍNEZ: That is Republican Representative Dusty Johnson of South Dakota. Congressman, thank you for the time, and happy birthday.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF GOGO PENGUIN'S "REACTOR") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
