SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
The story of President Trump and the Epstein files has taken over American politics, but it's also been a lot to follow. So here's a short summary.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, yeah, I would.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All right.
TRUMP: I guess I would.
DETROW: Campaigning to return to the White House, Trump was asked whether he'd declassify the information gained from the federal investigation into accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. He said yes, though he tempered that by saying he did not want to affect people's lives if those files contained, quote, "phony stuff." Once in office, Trump changed his message.
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TRUMP: I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff.
DETROW: That stance only led to even more documentation of the relationship between Epstein and his one-time friend, Trump, through media reports and through bipartisan efforts in the House Oversight Committee. A handful of Republicans joined Democrats in pushing for legislation to compel the Department of Justice to release its Epstein files. And despite intense lobbying from the White House to get those Republicans to back off, they forced the House of Representatives to vote on it this week.
And then, last night, Trump changed his message again. He posted on Truth Social, saying, quote, "House Republicans should vote to release the Epstein files because we have nothing to hide, and it's time to move on from this Democrat hoax," end quote. Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie and California Democrat Ro Khanna jointly led the effort to force the floor vote, and Congressman Ro Khanna joins us now. Welcome to the show.
RO KHANNA: Good afternoon.
DETROW: What was your response to that latest post from President Trump? Did it surprise you that he's now calling for the House to approve this legislation?
KHANNA: It did surprise me, but he saw the math. He caved to the coalition that Massie and I have built over the past five months. Look, this is one of the most horrific crimes in American history. You had Jeffrey Epstein who had a rape island. You had rich and powerful men who basically abused underage girls or knew about that abuse and said nothing. And we were able to build such a strong coalition that there were probably nearly a hundred Republicans who would have voted for my bill, my underlying bill, despite the president's bullying them to get off, and the president saw the reality.
DETROW: Trump, of course, doesn't need the House vote to release the files, right? So what is the goal here at this point in time?
KHANNA: Well, the goal is to show that there is an enormous coalition in this country that wants the Epstein class removed, that we stand with forgotten Americans and not the Epstein class, and that a overwhelming vote in the House and the Senate is going to put enormous pressure to release these files. We're having survivors at the Capitol tomorrow, and this is something they've been wanting for decades. They deserve justice.
DETROW: What do you mean by the Epstein class?
KHANNA: I define the Epstein class narrowly as the people who either abused underage girls or who knew about Epstein's abuse and covered it up. But more generally, the Epstein class is a group of people with extreme wealth who have donated to politicians and been part of a system where they think the rules don't apply to them, and they have created a system that has shafted a lot of forgotten Americans. That's why Donald Trump ran and was central to his campaign. And many people, like Marjorie Taylor Greene and others, believe he's become part of the swamp that he said he would drain. He's forgotten the forgotten Americans he said he would stand up for.
DETROW: I want to ask you to respond to - I'm sure you've heard this criticism many times. So there are a lot of supporters of President Trump who say that Democrats only got interested in this ongoing story when it became clear that it could politically damage President Trump. What's your response to that claim?
KHANNA: Well, first of all, I spoke out about this in 2019 with Elijah Cummings, and people can look at my social media about it. And then during President Biden, there was a judge-ordered process of releasing files. But what Donald Trump then said is he wants to expedite that and release all of them. JD Vance said this multiple times. I did not criticize him once in the first six, seven months. The only time I spoke out with Thomas Massie is when Pam Bondi went on television and said, well, we've released everything. It's time to move on. There's nothing more to see. And that's when we mobilized.
And our hope was that we would get President Trump, back then, to see that he needed to fulfill his commitment to release the files. We never made this about Donald Trump. The survivors have not made this about Donald Trump. This is about justice for the survivor, protecting our kids and exposing one of the most horrific, disgusting scandals in our country's history.
DETROW: There were 20,000 pages of documents that were released last week, but that was not the DOJ files. That included everything from the emails where Epstein said that Trump, quote, "knew about the girls" to, you know, lots of exchanges between prominent Democrats, among others, with Jeffrey Epstein. Do you have any idea what is in the DOJ files themselves? Like, what do you expect if you do get your wish?
KHANNA: Well, what I know is from what the Epstein survivors' lawyers say, because they've seen the files. There are photographs of lewd acts that took place. There are interview memorandum with rich and powerful men who either engaged in sex trafficking or actually showed up to Epstein's island. There is numerous emails and records from Epstein's own computers that would show who was friends with him and taking money from him despite knowing that he abused underage girls.
DETROW: I think that President Trump's insistence that the DOJ investigate Democrats mentioned in last week's files is the latest example of the political interference that's taking place at DOJ. Given that, how would you approach verifying whatever the Department of Justice eventually turns over? Would you have concerns about what DOJ turns over?
KHANNA: I do have concerns. I've said that the process should be non-politicized nonpartisans. If Democrats are implicated, so be it.
DETROW: I'm just talking about the factual information, though. How would you make sure that these are, in fact, the full files? Is there conversation about that?
KHANNA: There is. And the way to make sure is that we have lawyers who've seen the files - the victims' lawyers. They should be involved. There are people from Biden's Justice Department who've seen the files. There are career officials who've seen the files. And by the way, we're getting documents from Epstein's estate, which are independent. And so if the Trump administration tries to tamper with the documents, there are a lot of external validators who've seen the files who'd be able to call that out.
DETROW: Very, very quick question - do you feel confident this would pass the Senate if it clears the House?
KHANNA: I do. We just heard from Senator Merkley that he's going to bring this up.
DETROW: OK.
KHANNA: And we have bipartisan support there.
DETROW: That is Congressman Ro Khanna of California. Thank you so much.
KHANNA: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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