AILSA CHANG, BYLINE: It's in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 where the U.S. Constitution empowers Congress, not the president, to declare war. Of course, anyone versed in recent U.S. history will know that U.S. presidents have authorized plenty of military action without Congress signing off first. One timely example - last year, the U.S. struck three nuclear sites in Iran, joining Israel in its fight against the country. And right now, the U.S. has massively built up military forces in the Middle East. This week, the U.S. is also conducting diplomatic talks with Iran, which could end in a nuclear deal or could end with more violence.
In the Senate, Democrat Tim Kaine of Virginia and Republican Rand Paul of Kentucky have filed a war powers resolution to prevent the president from attacking Iran without congressional approval. Senator Kaine joins us now. Welcome back to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
TIM KAINE: Ailsa, great to be with you. Thanks.
CHANG: Great to have you. So when do you expect to vote on this resolution?
KAINE: Ailsa, it will happen early next week. Even as I sit here talking to you, it's being negotiated, but it will be in the first couple of days of next week when we're back in session Monday.
CHANG: OK, but I have to ask because previous votes on war powers resolutions - like over Venezuela, over last year's strikes on Iran - they have failed. Almost all Republicans have voted against them. So why does this moment feel any different to you?
KAINE: Well, first, whether they succeed or fail, we shouldn't be at war without a vote, and so members of Congress should be held accountable. Secondly, we learn, and particularly in the Venezuela vote. In the Senate, we actually got enough votes - Democrat plus some Republicans initially - and then a few Republicans got convinced to change their minds in some subsequent votes. But it changed the president's behavior. After the first vote, within a few hours he canceled a second strike on Venezuela. And he also agreed finally to have a public hearing to send Secretary Rubio up to discuss what, in fact, was the mission, what were the goals, what would success look like.
And so I very much learned from that effort, even though we ultimately were not successful, that forcing a vote and a debate on these matters brings it more to the public's attention, where the public can decide whether a mission's in the national interest. And it can even change the behavior of the administration.
CHANG: But I want to share a statement from a fellow Democrat. This is Congressman Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey, who's opposed to an equivalent war powers resolution in the House. And he writes, quote, "this resolution would restrict the flexibility needed to respond to real and evolving threats and risks, signaling weakness at a dangerous moment." What do you say to your colleague there about that?
KAINE: I'm on the Armed Services Committee and the Foreign Relations Committee, and I'm in the classified facility all the time hearing about risks, and I hear nothing whatsoever about any risks right now that Iran poses to the United States that are at a sufficient level that we should allow a president to take our sons and daughters into war without a debate by Congress.
CHANG: Well, during the State of the Union address, President Trump said that Iran is developing missiles that may soon be able to reach the U.S. and that Iran is restarting its nuclear program. How much has the Trump administration shared evidence of those claims with lawmakers like you?
KAINE: Well, let's take both. So how about the nuclear program? First, we had controlled Iran's nuclear program by a diplomatic deal that we entered into with our allies, with adversaries like China and Russia and Iran. President Trump tore up the deal. President Trump, after a 12-day bombing campaign by Israel over the summer, used U.S. assets to bomb Iranian nuclear sites and claimed that the Iranian nuclear program was obliterated. That was just six months ago. So now all of a sudden, their nuclear program poses such a threat that we can't even have a debate and vote in Congress? It makes no sense.
With respect to the missiles, they are developing missiles, which they may use at some time against the United States. There's so many hypotheticals in there, and the overmatch we have is such that Iran knows this. If they were to use a missile against the United States, which they haven't, it would be a catastrophe for them.
CHANG: OK, but given what you know now about the situation in Iran and whatever threat they do or might pose to the U.S. militarily, what would you want to see the U.S. military do at this point? Is there anything justifiable in your mind right now?
KAINE: I would say, provide defense support to nations in the region. But we shouldn't commit our own children to yet another war in the Middle East when 25 years of war in the Middle East has produced so little for this country and so little for the region.
CHANG: OK. As we mentioned, there is a U.S. delegation in Geneva right now...
KAINE: Yes.
CHANG: ...In talks with Iran. What about concerns that this debate in Congress about limiting presidential power - what about concerns that that might reduce the U.S.'s leverage in those diplomatic talks? Could they?
KAINE: Well, you know, a war is a good idea or a bad idea, and if it's a bad idea, I don't think you should bluff it to try to, you know, get the upper hand in a negotiation. It's a bad idea, in this case, in my view. That - but the fact of the discussions even today is one of the reasons why even though my resolution was ripe for voting this week, we decided a few days out in the future, likely next week, would be preferable. Let that negotiation proceed.
CHANG: Yeah.
KAINE: Let's do all we can to do what we did 10 years ago and find a diplomatic deal to avoid the need for war.
CHANG: You oppose the Trump administration's claiming of powers that you believe belong to Congress constitutionally. You also oppose war - war with Iran and the repression by the regime in Iran. So then, what is your larger preferred path forward here when it comes to the regime there?
KAINE: Well, look, I do think the tools that we have, the sanctions tools and others, have made a huge impact on the regime. And it's put the regime in a place, as was the case in 2016. The regime came to the table and negotiated the nuclear deal not because of the threat of war. What was real was the sanctions' effect on the Iranian economy. That brought them to the table. We reached that deal. But then we also maintain the ability to use sanctions against Iran for nonnuclear activity - missiles, you know, crackdowns on human rights.
CHANG: Right.
KAINE: So I think we should try to return to that. Let's get a deal on the nuclear program and then use these other tools that we have to try to deal with nonnuclear activities that are causing instability in the region.
CHANG: Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, thank you very much for joining us, and happy birthday.
KAINE: Hey, thanks so much. Take care. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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