SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
And we turn now to NPR senior contributor Ron Elving. Ron, thank you for being with us.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: And as talks begin in Pakistan, there's lots of opposition from some of President Trump's foremost supporters, or at least formerly so in Congress and media circles. Who's saying what?
ELVING: Yes, we are seeing more division than ever among those who were, as you say, formerly the foremost MAGA champions, especially media personalities, such as Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly and a raft of other podcasters and online influencers. They've all denounced Trump's big turn to making war in the Middle East, noting that Trump ran against such wars in the past, so much so as to be accused of being an isolationist. A key element in this division is the role played by Israel.
Benjamin Netanyahu is widely seen as having persuaded Trump to make this war, and critics of the war have often been critics of the U.S. relationship with Israel. And that now includes those famous podcasters, like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly. But others in Trump's coalition still see Israel as our best ally against what they call our geopolitical enemies. That's a phrase used by commentator Ben Shapiro, editor of The Daily Wire, a leading voice in that camp. So is Trump a defender of Israel or the champion of the America First neo-isolationist wing of the GOP? That's a fundamental divide. And for the moment, Trump seems to be trying to stay closely attuned to both.
SIMON: Ron, this week, President Trump threatened even greater destruction if Iran didn't open the Strait of Hormuz, saying, quote, "a whole civilization will die tonight." Has any U.S. president ever made such a dire threat against another country, including Presidents Roosevelt or Truman, during the height of World War II?
ELVING: It's hard to find an example, Scott. Even in the midst of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962, at what may have been the brink of outright nuclear war, John F. Kennedy did not use such explicit threats or such apocalyptic language. And at no point in the half-century of the Cold War did American leaders in either party talk about destroying a whole country or a whole civilization or its people.
SIMON: There's been a surge of calls from political commentators and Democratic politicians to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove President Trump from power for beginning a war without congressional approval. Are there enough votes in - Democratic or Republican to make this serious move?
ELVING: No. It sounds serious, and it suggests the gravest of circumstances. But as a practical matter, the 25th Amendment is about removing a president who is incapacitated, felled by a stroke or possibly wounded in a nuclear attack. It has to be initiated in the executive branch, and it depends heavily on the role of the vice president in the Cabinet. Congress does have a role, but it's a secondary one. This is quite different from impeachment.
SIMON: Ron, what do you make of Melania Trump's surprise statement Thursday denying any ties whatsoever between her and Jeffrey Epstein? She also called for Congress to hold open hearings for Epstein victims and survivors.
ELVING: It seems to defy easy explanation, except that people have generally applauded her support for more hearings to air with respect the stories of the survivors. And people might understand her anger at being linked to Jeffrey Epstein right now. She may well be tired of all those TV images of her and her husband with Epstein. Those images show her in Epstein's world - suggests she was somehow involved in it, embedded in it. But those pictures are far from new, so there's a question about timing here. Her exact motives and intent and the role of the president in all this, all of that remains unclear.
SIMON: Ron Elving. Thanks so much.
ELVING: Thank you, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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