A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
For more insights into the ethics complaints against Congressmen Eric Swalwell and Tony Gonzales, we called up Richard Painter. He served as chief White House ethics lawyer under George W. Bush and is now a professor of corporate law at the University of Minnesota Law School. Professor, so what do you make of these decisions to step down before investigations into the allegations of ethics violations are concluded?
RICHARD PAINTER: Well, I think it's a good, very good idea for both of them to resign from Congress. The evidence appears to be overwhelming with respect to both congressmen, Swalwell and Gonzales. And the Ethics Committee would no doubt have commenced an investigation. And if they commenced an investigation, then they each would have had to tell the truth or compound their problems even more. And with the overwhelming evidence here, I think they made the right decision, which is to get out of Congress.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. I remember in 2019, Congresswoman Katie Hill was accused of having an affair with a staffer. She promised to cooperate with an Ethics Committee investigation, but then resigned pretty quickly after. And then Swalwell resigns from Congress after the House announced that it was investigating him. Now, once someone is no longer in Congress, does the House Ethics Committee continue an investigation, or do they typically just drop things?
PAINTER: Typically, they drop things. They can continue in a situation where they believe that the conduct had a serious impact on the House. For example, the campaign with the staffer, or a congressional staffer having a relationship with a member, particularly if other people are covering it up or there are other members who may be doing the same thing, I think that there are going to be situations where it would make a lot of sense for the Ethics Committee to investigate. But often they just simply drop it.
MARTÍNEZ: So it sounds like it does make a lot of sense for the person involved to just get out.
PAINTER: It certainly does because if the evidence is overwhelming and they go and lie about - to the Congressional Ethics Committee and so forth, they just make their problems even worse. Not that we don't have a problem with politicians lying to the voters...
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
PAINTER: ...And to the press, but it's really - they realize that time's up.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, how common are resignations over such allegations of wrongdoing?
PAINTER: Quite rare. Quite rare. We had one here in Minnesota, Al Franken...
MARTÍNEZ: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
PAINTER: ...Back in 2018. I thought that that - the evidence there I don't think was sufficient to justify a resignation. A resignation often does have an impact on the democratic system, which we elect members of Congress and members of the House and Senate. And so, you know, there are these - at some point, we need to weigh these, the different factors, and I thought Al Franken should have simply finished his term and not run for reelection under those circumstances. But these two cases are really very, very different and far more egregious, and we really can't have the type of conduct that's been alleged in either of these two cases this year in the United States House.
MARTÍNEZ: So how much do political considerations play in these kinds of decisions, given the narrow majority of Republicans in the House?
PAINTER: Well, there's certainly - politics can come into play. We remember Senator Menendez in New Jersey, who was charged twice, criminally indicted for bribery and only convicted the second time. The first time, I believe it was a hung jury. And yet the Democratic Party stood by his side until the very, very end. His political influence in New Jersey and the New Jersey Democratic Party was immense. So sometimes, for political reasons, people will stand by a member of Congress, just as some Republicans stand by our current president of the United States, who has faced several very, very serious charges...
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah.
PAINTER: ...In the criminal justice system.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. I ask that because in Eric Swalwell's case, his district is so reliably blue that I think other Democrats can safely feel that they can push him, you know, aside and that seat will not flip in any way, shape or form.
PAINTER: Yes, and that is a factor that is going to be considered. And to expel a member, you need - really need both parties, yeah, and - because of the two-thirds threshold needed to expel a member of the House. So it cannot - the expulsion cannot be simply a political retribution or anything like that.
MARTÍNEZ: All right. Richard Painter is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. He also served as chief White House ethics lawyer in the administration of George W. Bush. Professor Painter, thank you very much for your time.
PAINTER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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