AILSA CHANG, HOST:
The extraordinary back-and-forth between Pope Leo and the Trump administration continues to heat up. The pope is, again, speaking out about war and peace. Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson is weighing in, appearing to question the pope's understanding of Catholic theology. Here to tell us what is going on is NPR religion correspondent Jason DeRose. Hi, Jason.
JASON DEROSE, BYLINE: Hello.
CHANG: OK. So let's start with the latest comments from Pope Leo. What has he been saying exactly?
DEROSE: Well, all this week, Leo has been traveling in Africa. And today, while in Cameroon, he said, the world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants. But he also said it's being held together by a multitude of supportive brothers and sisters.
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POPE LEO XIV: Jesus told us, blessed are the peacemakers. But woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth.
DEROSE: Now, there have certainly been plenty of wars and warlords in Africa, but given this week's high-profile dispute between the Vatican and the Trump administration, Leo's remarks appear pretty pointed.
CHANG: Indeed. And as I mentioned, House Speaker Johnson is also questioning Pope Leo now. What is he saying exactly?
DEROSE: Well, speaking to reporters, he referred to remarks Pope Leo made on Palm Sunday a few weeks ago. Back then, Leo said, God, quote, "does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them." And here's what Speaker Johnson said today.
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MIKE JOHNSON: I was taken a little bit aback just, honestly, frankly, by something that was said. I think you said several days back that - something about those who engage in war - you know, that Jesus doesn't hear their prayers or something. You know, it is a very well-settled matter of Christian theology. There's something called the just war doctrine. There's a time to every purpose under heaven.
DEROSE: Johnson is alluding to, there, a verse from the Book of Ecclesiastes in the Hebrew Bible, about there being a time for war and a time for peace.
CHANG: Well, he also mentions the just war doctrine. Can you say more about what that is?
DEROSE: Sure. Well, just war theory is a body of Christian theology that took shape in the 4th and 5th centuries. It was outlined by Augustine, one of the early church fathers. Now, it has lots of parts, including conditions for going into war, conditions for fighting a war and then how to behave after the war ends.
CHANG: OK. Well, what are those conditions for going into war in a so-called just way?
DEROSE: Well, there are several. Here are some that I think are most pertinent for this dispute. One, is the war averting an imminent threat? Two, has diplomacy been tried and exhausted, and is war now the last resort? Three, is the goal of the war to gain power or territory or wealth, or is it really about restoring peace? And four, is the violence in the war as minimal as possible to secure that peace? Ailsa, now, you can see, based on those various answers to those questions, there can be disagreement over what constitutes just war.
CHANG: Totally.
DEROSE: Pope Leo has clearly, though, considered those questions and made a decision. But it's still remarkable that Speaker Johnson, in his comments today, appears to be schooling Pope Leo on Catholic teaching.
CHANG: I mean, you use the word remarkable. I use the word extraordinary to describe this whole dispute. Can you just put this back and forth between the pope and the president into perspective for us as someone who covers religion?
DEROSE: Sure. Sure.
CHANG: Yeah.
DEROSE: Now, there have certainly been major disagreements between church leaders and political leaders before - for millennia, really. But this conflict's - conflict keeps escalating and feels more and more heated than anything in recent decades, really. There have been moments earlier this week that I think really encapsulate this situation.
Vice President JD Vance, who's Catholic, said the pope should be careful when giving opinions about theology. That resulted in a rebuke from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops yesterday that said quite sternly, quote, "when Pope Leo XIV speaks as supreme pastor of the universal church, he is not merely offering opinions on theology but preaching the gospel and exercising his ministry as the vicar of Christ. That is a very public correction to Vance, from leaders of his own church.
CHANG: That is NPR's Jason DeRose. Thank you, Jason.
DEROSE: You're welcome. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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