JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
The federal government is perilously close to a government shutdown. In a last-ditch effort to head that off, or at least to look like they're trying, President Trump met today with the top congressional leaders from both parties in the Oval Office. But that meeting ended with both sides dug in. Here's House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.
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HAKEEM JEFFRIES: It was a frank and direct discussion, but significant and meaningful differences remain. Democrats are fighting to protect the health care of the American people, and we are not going to support a partisan Republican spending bill that continues to gut the health care of everyday Americans, period, full stop.
SUMMERS: And Vice President JD Vance.
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JD VANCE: You don't put a gun to the American people's head and say, unless you do exactly what the Senate and House Democrats want you to do, we're going to shut down your government.
SUMMERS: Vance concluded by saying we are headed for a shutdown. NPR congressional correspondent Deirdre Walsh and senior White House correspondent Tamara Keith are following this story. They join me now. Hi.
TAMARA KEITH, BYLINE: Hello.
DEIRDRE WALSH, BYLINE: Hey, Juana.
SUMMERS: Deirdre, let's start with you. Tell us what happened at this meeting at the White House.
WALSH: Well, as you heard, there's no plan to avoid a shutdown, and both sides are really hardening their positions. Democrats say they're still demanding that any deal to fund the government also has to address health care. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said he thought the president was hearing during this meeting the impacts of this health care issue that Democrats are pushing. They want to have some kind of deal to extend health care subsidies that are expiring at the end of this year. Those tax credits help middle- and working-class Americans buy health care plans. But Republicans criticized Democrats coming out of their meeting. The Senate majority leader, John Thune, called it hostage taking and a hijacking.
KEITH: And one of the remarkable things about this moment is these are the very words Democrats have used in the past to complain about Republican tactics in previous shutdowns. I have to say the White House is rolling into this potential shutdown with confidence. Republicans came out of that meeting saying they are united. They said this sort of short-term funding bill they want has been supported by Democrats many times before, which is true. And they are demanding that they do the same this time. Vice President Vance even said Democrats had some good ideas, but he added any negotiations need to happen with the government open, not shut down. Mind you, he and pretty much everyone else at this point seems convinced that a shutdown is happening.
SUMMERS: Right. Do Democrats have a reason to think that they're going to get Republicans to agree to their demands?
WALSH: I mean, they argue that the Republicans control the White House, the Senate and the House. But they say, you know, they're trying to get some of these things front and center as part of the debate. Look, Democrats are also trying to reverse the Medicaid changes that were part of the president's signature tax bill. Most of them admit that is not going to happen. But there is bipartisan support for doing something - probably outside of this government funding bill - to address these healthcare subsidies, maybe do a one-year extension of these tax credits. But it's clear that Republicans are keeping those issues separate. They see them as an end-of-the-year issue.
SUMMERS: I mean, we have all covered Washington for a long time. And I have to say, this White House is taking a really different approach to this potential shutdown than I remember President Trump taking in the past. Tam, why the change?
KEITH: Right. So the 2018 shutdown that stretched into 2019 was really started by a demand from President Trump, demanding billions of dollars to fund his border wall. At the time, he literally said he would be proud to shut the government down, and then he did. So his administration worked to minimize the impact felt by the American people. One example, they kept the national parks open, even though most people in the park service staff weren't allowed to work.
This time is different. Late last week, budget director Russell Vought said agencies should make plans for mass firings during any shutdown. So not just the usual temporary furloughs but permanent job cuts. Now another government office is out with a new guidance that says that one of the few activities furloughed employees could use their government-issued devices for during the shutdown is checking to see whether they've lost their jobs.
SUMMERS: And we should just point out that firing workers instead of just furloughing them, that is a big change.
WALSH: Right, and this is the kind of change by the OMB Russ Vought that Schumer warned about back in March when he and other Democrats did give Republicans enough votes to avoid a shutdown. But they - you know, at the time, Schumer said that's what, you know, they should be worried about, that it was risky to let the Trump administration decide what was open, what was essential and what wasn't.
SUMMERS: So Democrats were worried about how the administration would handle a shutdown in March - so worried, in fact, that they voted for a spending bill to avoid it. What's changed? What's different now?
WALSH: I mean, the politics are just a huge driver in this whole debate. The Democratic base was furious in March with Schumer and those other Democrats that helped Republicans avoid that shutdown. They really want Democratic leaders to fight. That's what leaders - lawmakers across the spectrum are hearing from their supporters. I've heard that from members of Congress here at the Capitol. Outside advocacy groups on the left really think that the top leaders in Washington need to take on the Trump administration. Schumer says things are different now because the administration, since then, has clawed back money that Congress approved. They've withheld money for other programs, and they've laid off federal workers on their own through these cuts that the Trump administration has done.
KEITH: And this is the very reason that Republicans in the White House are confident that Democrats will get the blame for the shutdown, if it happens.
SUMMERS: We've talked a lot about the politics, but we know that shutdowns, they have real consequences for people and their access to government services. What do we know at this point about who will feel the earliest effects if there is a shutdown?
KEITH: Yeah. One unusual feature of this impending shutdown is that it's been pretty difficult to get a complete picture of what all the agencies are planning to do. The White House has been saying, though, that funding will run out quickly for the Women, Infant and Children program, known as WIC, which provides nutrition assistance and health care screenings.
WALSH: It also depends on how long a shutdown could last. If it's a week with federal workers getting back pay, there might not be widespread fallout. Back in the 2019 shutdown that Tam talked about earlier, that went on for 35 days. And one of the tipping points that came that caused Republicans to relent and reopen the government was after TSA workers...
SUMMERS: Yeah.
WALSH: ...Who weren't getting paid called out sick, and there were airport delays. So there are real-world impacts, but those could take days or weeks to see.
SUMMERS: NPR's Deirdre Walsh and Tamara Keith, thanks so much.
KEITH: You're welcome.
WALSH: Thanks, Juana. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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